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Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

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Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#51
post #11

48Vdc is supposedly the highest voltage that is still considered safe. ( https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/267789/how-s... ) It certainly sounds like a smart move on the copper savings alone.

Extra low voltage is 50v ac or 100v dv. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage For some reason people assume it's 48v DC or 50v dc. But it's double that. That said, I feel significantly more scared dealing with 100v DC than I do 48 or 24v.

ELV is not a fundamental definition of "safe". The limits of what's safe depends on the application and your risk tolerance, and ELV is just a name for a couple of definitions out of many.

Also, those numbers are for ripple-free DC, which you're not going to find in a car. They're cut roughly in half for ripple peaks.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#52
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. 48V (actually -48V) has been used across telco central offices for decades.

How exactly do you define a negative voltage unless you are using some other voltage as a reference?

It is with respect to ground, the positive pole of the battery is connected to ground.

The telegraph system figured this out very quickly. Most water in nature has at least a bit of salt in it, which is present as positive sodium ions and negative chloride ions. By making the outdoor wiring negative with respect to ground, the chloride ions are repelled, and such wires corrode much more slowly than those that're positive with respect to ground.

Since most of the telegraph network, later the telephone network, is outdoors, this is a pretty big deal.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#53
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. 48V (actually -48V) has been used across telco central offices for decades.

How exactly do you define a negative voltage unless you are using some other voltage as a reference?

It's a matter of perspective.

You tie one of the leads to earth (literally grounding it)[1], leaving the other non-grounded. Depending on if you tie the negative or the positive lead to ground, you get 48V or -48V with respect to ground. As long as the potential between the most positive lead and the least positive lead is 48V, the circuit itself doesn't care.

As mentioned here[2], the reason for grounding the positive lead is to prevent galvanic corrosion[3] destroying the buried copper.

[1]: https://www.bicsi.org/docs/default-source/conference-present...

[2]: https://www.poweringthenetwork.com/uncategorized/negative-48...

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A split 48/12 system makes a lot more sense. Run the heater/heat pump, power steering, coolant pump, etc on 48V and keep entertainment and controls on 12V.

Computer chips use ~1.5V or so these days. Why go 48V->12V->1.5V when you can go 48V->1.5V directly? If it's more efficient to use an intermediate voltage, you can choose the most efficient intermediate voltage internally rather than using 12V.

There is a lot of off the shelf 12V equipment you can buy. Plus even more that is sitting in garages ready to be installed in the next vehicle. Cars are manufactured in enough quantity that it would only cost $0.01 per vehicle to design it (plus parts costs which are probably the same), but that is still a few million to the bottom line if they use the same 12 volt radio. Add to that that ICE cars everywhere have 12 volt starters, and you can buy 12 volt jump start kits: when (not if!) a battery fails to start the ICE you better be able to jump start it from a 12 volt battery - this is a safety issue.

Tesla doesn't have ICEs, so the safety concerns are lost on them. Thus all 48 volt makes some sense. They still need something for all the accessories people have.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#55
post #11

48Vdc is supposedly the highest voltage that is still considered safe. ( https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/267789/how-s... ) It certainly sounds like a smart move on the copper savings alone.

Remember a fully charged lithium battery with nominal 48v can be close to 60v just like 12v in your car is actually closer to 14v.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A split 48/12 system makes a lot more sense. Run the heater/heat pump, power steering, coolant pump, etc on 48V and keep entertainment and controls on 12V.

Computer chips use ~1.5V or so these days. Why go 48V->12V->1.5V when you can go 48V->1.5V directly? If it's more efficient to use an intermediate voltage, you can choose the most efficient intermediate voltage internally rather than using 12V.

Because we already have the 12V infrastructure and part supplies in place. You're disrupting things for no benefit. We've been running split 24V/12V systems for decades now in automotive applications. It's not that big a deal to change that to 48V/12V systems as many European car manufacturers have done.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#57

Why would a car need a 48V system for accessories? In general the things a car's 12V system powers have gotten less power hungry over time (LED's, heat pump) and in particular, an EV loses the highest power electrical device on the 12V bus, the starter. The typical equipment used for the entertainment and control systems are going to be much more available with 12V supplies, just because that's the industry standard.…

> Why would a car need a 48V system for accessories? In general the things a car's 12V system powers have gotten less power hungry over time It’s not primarily about delivering more power, is it? I thought the point of higher voltage is that for a given power the wires can be smaller.

It can be both. Higher voltage allows longer small wires, and/or more power on the same wires. Depends on what the car needs. If it is just a few lights on the back of the car you are looking for smaller/cheaper wires. However if you are looking to put something power hungry in back (work trucks have a lot of needs around this) the higher voltage allows the same wires to deliver more power.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#58
post #2

TIL that 42V fizzled out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42-volt_electrical_system I welcome the move to 48V, as one gets lots of cross over synergies from the 48V telco standard. https://www.servertech.com/blog/48vdc-power-and-the-backbone... https://www.st.com/content/dam/AME/2019/developers-conferenc... https://www.maximintegrated.com/content/dam/files/products/p... https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/applications/infor…

As mentioned in the 42v article they went with that due to 48v nominal being too close to 60v max on alternator/fully charged which is the limit shock hazard.

Not sure what chemistry/cell count will be for the 48v battery (which I assume it has) but 48v could mean 13s - 16s packs.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that anyone is going to stick a plow on a Cybertruck, but holy shit is the hydraulic pump on one of those a huge current draw. It's 4AWG wire on mine. The battery is kind of marginal[0] and when I raise the plow, the volt meter goes down to 7-8 volts if the engine's at idle and the alternator can't supply the needed current. Gunning the engine improves the situation somewhat, but wow, was that an eye opener. [0]…

Most of the residential snow clearing outfits around me use plows and blowers on Kubota tractors. Probably part of the reason is so that can use PTO hydraulics...

There are pros and cons. Snow plows beat on a the vehicle - which is why plows are the last thing a truck does before you quit using it. Highway departments will use a dump truck mounted plow because the frame of the dump truck can take the beating (that they can put salt on the dump truck is a very useful side effect). Tractors are designed to pull plows through dirt which also beats on them, and so tractors can stand up to snow plows better than a truck. However tractors are slower and so cannot work for on road work. PTO and hydraulics are useful as well.

Re: Tesla shares 48V architecture with other automakers

#60

Why would a car need a 48V system for accessories? In general the things a car's 12V system powers have gotten less power hungry over time (LED's, heat pump) and in particular, an EV loses the highest power electrical device on the 12V bus, the starter. The typical equipment used for the entertainment and control systems are going to be much more available with 12V supplies, just because that's the industry standard.…

Hi, automotive electrical is my job.

There's quite a bit of very thick wiring in a car, not just the starter wire, but boring stuff like audio amplifiers, rear window defrosters, power seat motors. Those things don't draw a ton of power, like maybe just a few hundred watts, but at 12 volts even modest powers require extraordinarily thick wires, especially when you account for bundle derating.

This requires large terminals, which requires larger connectors, and there's the complexity, because MOST of the wiring in the car is just signals, or low-power stuff, which can run over thin wires and small terminals. (Minimum size is limited by mechanical durability rather than electrical conductivity.) Making a "hybrid" connector that has a couple large cavities for large terminals, and a bunch of small cavities for small terminals, is a pain. Having separate connectors for heavy power and for signals introduces more assembly work and negatively impacts testability. The wires have different stiffness and bend behaviors, they exert different amounts of force on weather seals, they have to be terminated on different machines at different points in the assembly process.

By allowing power wires to be nearly as thin as signal wires, you can use simpler connectors with unified terminals. Manufacturing gets simpler, harnesses get lighter, assembly gets faster and easier.

Weight is also a huge deal, every ounce counts. There's upwards of 100 lbs of wiring harness in most cars, more in larger or premium models with a lot of accessories. If half of that weight is signals and won't change with voltage, but the other half is heavy power circuits that'll get 4x thinner at 48v, it's significant weight savings.

Furthermore, switching heavy current means massive relays or FETs and the heatsinks thereon. If you can reduce the current, those components get lighter too. Audio amplifiers get lighter, speakers get lighter (stupid heavy-wound 2-ohm speakers to get reasonable volume out of low voltage drive? Nah, use standard 8-ohm now that you have real voltage at the amplifier!), all sorts of things get lighter.

That's all in addition to the electric power steering already mentioned by others. EPS can easily move 1kw for short periods, and has stupidly huge wiring to do that at 12v. It's still chunky at 48v, but a lot less so, and can use more common terminals and connectors. Replacing a hand-assembled bolted connection with a machine-crimped and clicked-together connector improves reliability or reduces testing process overhead.

It's really significant, and it's embarrassing that the industry fell flat on its face in the late 90s last time they tried. Here's hoping this takes off.

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