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He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

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Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#51

Post by jackdaniel »

throwawaysleep wrote: post #42
jackdaniel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I disagree with your opinion, I appreciate a lot that you've stated it. That's a very honest thing to say.

Is it that you morally disagree (I agree that it is a poor reward for doing me a service) or you have a disagreement about why society punishes whistleblowers?

I disagree with equating whistleblowering and snitching. We all have dirty secrets, but let's loosely say that the scale matters.

It is a different story when coworker tells "boss" who is lazying around, and a different story when someone reports a serious misconduct towards other people. I'm not sure how to phrase it clearly, but generally I would not associate myself with former people, but I wouldn't mind the latter. Maybe one day they'd prevent me from doing something really terrible (given I wouldn't know better).

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#52

Post by dkbrk »

As a regular reader of Matt Levine this sounds like an opportunity for a securities fraud suit. Surely Amazon has said that its factories follow local labor laws, that whistleblowers are protected etc. That seems like a fairly standard thing for a large corporation to claim.

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#54

Post by sgjohnson »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #9
sgjohnson wrote: post #6

Slavery is de-facto legal in China and their justice system is rotten to the core. Is this really news to anyone? I would be surprised if this had ended differently.

> As our report describes in detail, the labor conditions of incarcerated workers in many U.S. prisons violate the most fundamental human rights to life and dignity,” said Clinical Prof. Claudia Flores, the director of the Global Human Rights Clinic. “In any other workplace, these conditions would be shocking and plainly unlawful https://news.uchicago.edu/story/us-prison-labor-programs-vio...

The US constitution actually allows slavery/involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, as per the 13th amendment:

> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

So it makes little sense to compare prison labour programs to "any other workplace".

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#55

Post by Semaphor »

rafaelmn wrote: post #30
avidiax wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess that Bezos has never read this letter. An underling of his would never present this letter to him unless Bezos has specifically asked to be presented such letters, and the fallout from this letter will never be sufficient to warrant his attention. It's unfortunate that American and European voters don't realize that allowing our companies to do business with places famous for worker's rights abuses and…

Isn't US using prisoners for (effectively) forced labor ? US and EU are abusing (often illegal) immigrants and turning a blind eye to their terrible working conditions (eg. the slaughter house scandals in the EU that broke out during COVID). Plenty of shit on our doorstep and people don't seem to be bothered that much stepping over it. Why would we be upset about a larger pile of shit a continent away ? We are so iso…

> (eg. the slaughter house scandals in the EU that broke out during COVID)

And got forgotten about shortly after. At least that was my impression here in Germany, but I hope I’m wrong.

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#56

Post by sgjohnson »

xkcd1963 wrote: post #49
ejb999 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

talk about mental gymnastics - you just said "I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China." so, give them a pass with what they are doing and then criticize others that are giving them the same pass, and also choose to profit from it. What about people who buy stuff made in China? do they get a pass too? So th…

[flagged]

He is right though. The companies are accountable to the shareholders, and the shareholders (usually) don't care.

Companies are not sentient beings, they are made up of people. People that don't care.

Personally, I'm a consumer and I don't care either. I know where my t-shirts are made and I have a vague understanding under what conditions they are made.

This is not a problem that has to be fixed in the west. It's a problem that has to be fixed in China. But China doesn't want to fix it, because fixing it would make them less competitive globally.

Consumers WANT cheap goods. China OFFERS cheap goods. Companies offer the consumers exactly what they want. Simple as.

You really cannot blame only the companies without blaming the consumers too. And if you care, you can stop buying things manufactured in China.

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#57

Post by blitzar »

avidiax wrote: post #15
laborcontract wrote: post #7

After reading both the article and his letter, I can't help but feel so, so sad. There's no glory for this guy. In the States, you'd be able to parlay something like this into a speaking/podcast tour, a book deal, and some consultancy gigs. This guy's life is ruined, his extended family's social credit sullied and, in addition to serving time, he's become the one of the abused workers he tried to protect. If I was th…

I would guess that Bezos has never read this letter. An underling of his would never present this letter to him unless Bezos has specifically asked to be presented such letters, and the fallout from this letter will never be sufficient to warrant his attention. It's unfortunate that American and European voters don't realize that allowing our companies to do business with places famous for worker's rights abuses and…

I would guess that Bezos read this letter, shruged and said something along the lines of "sucks to be him" while ordering a solid gold toilet for his yacht, because the platinum one was "too flashy"

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#58

Post by vladms »

mrweasel wrote: post #10
sgjohnson wrote: post #6

Slavery is de-facto legal in China and their justice system is rotten to the core. Is this really news to anyone? I would be surprised if this had ended differently.

The slavery and working conditions in China no longer really surprises me, what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China. What I cannot accept or understand is that the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly shar…

The companies respond mostly to what the public is willing to do about something. If the only thing people do is complaining on social networks then companies will not address the issue. If people will avoid a certain company based on their behavior then they will change it.

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#59

Post by keiferski »

PaulKeeble wrote: post #16

My experience of whistleblowing even here in the west is that usually it goes very very badly. The only real thing open to you is to refuse to do anything unethical, quit and walk away. Many people can't afford to do that. Things ought to be different but we live in corrupt societies where the law is different for the rich and powerful than for everyone else.

I encourage anyone interested in the consequences of whistleblowing to watch The Insider. A truly excellent film about a whistleblower at a tobacco company and the terrible things they did to try and stop him. Russell Crowe, Al Pacino, Bruce McGill, Christopher Plummer, many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Wigand

Trailer: https://youtu.be/MGOb29aePyc

The best scene: https://youtu.be/gNKmmA6_oTQ

Re: He blew the whistle on Amazon. He's still paying the price

#60

Post by liendolucas »

mrweasel wrote: post #10
sgjohnson wrote: post #6

Slavery is de-facto legal in China and their justice system is rotten to the core. Is this really news to anyone? I would be surprised if this had ended differently.

The slavery and working conditions in China no longer really surprises me, what I do struggle to understand is that Western companies apparently DO NOT CARE. I can sort of accept, reluctantly, that the Chinese have a different way to thinking than I do and that I can't necessarily apply my moral code to China. What I cannot accept or understand is that the owners and managers of Western companies, who supposedly shar…

Another huge problem is that most of the time there's really no other choice than to buy "Made in China". Even if you have the money and willing to spend more.
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