Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick • Hacker News Board

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#51

Post by philwelch » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 7:35 AM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #45

philwelch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny that no one uses this logic to argue for wiping Ireland or South Africa "from the pages of history", isn't it?

South Africa had a nuclear program, apartheid, and a few interesting property laws. But then they had a regime change and the previous way of thinking have been wiped "from the pages of history"; npt signing in 1991, cwc in 95. SA split in two forming Namibia in 1990, the same year that the talks to end Apartheid started ... leading to the release of Mandela and the multi-racial 94 elections. Sure, in California Engl…

I'm referring to the current "regime" in South Africa (do people ever use that word to describe a state they feel is legitimate?). If you had some kind of agenda and wanted to spin it the way you're spinning Israel, you could say the South African regime is even more deeply rooted in terrorism--Mandela was the founder and leader of the "terrorist organization" MK, and two of the next three successive presidents of South Africa were also members. Just as you point out that the Jewish militants were designated terrorists by the British, MK was designated as a terrorist organization by the South African government as well as the United States. You could even point out that once the "terrorist regime" took over in South Africa, MK was even folded into the regular military.

Of course, no one really says these things about South Africa. People seem to realize that Africans who have suffered from centuries of colonization and repression might be justified in fighting back. People even seem to realize that Ireland can be its own country now, even if they were founded by terrorists who killed British people, and even if some of them tried to engage Germany in a round of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Funny to wonder why people are less understanding with Israel, isn't it?

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#52

Post by mahmud » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 7:35 AM UTC

Zhenya wrote: post #37

mahmud wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel did wipe another country off the map: Palestine. Yet we trust them with nukes, which they don't have at all .

There was a country called Palestine before Israel? Source please!

Whatever I cite will never be good enough for you because you believe in the BS "finders keepers" colonialist mindset of occupation. No text, however sacred, no higher-power or imaginary friend can grant you dominance over others and their land. It's simply immoral to fly people from all over the world, so they may replace a forcibly expelled population.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#53

Post by barrkel » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 7:37 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #50

barrkel wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a nuclear armed Iran would greatly decrease the probability of Americans being killed by Iranians. The logic is simple: nukes bring a country into MAD (mutually assured destruction) mechanics. Most likely Iran would use Israel as a hostage since it would not have the ICBMs necessary to attack the US directly. It would be like North Korea and Japan, only "Japan" would be nuclear armed. I consider invasion of I…

This is silly thinking. The only thing that a MAD based stalemate is better than is a nuclear holocaust. Otherwise it's worse than every other option. The Cold War was better than WWIII but it wasn't something to be cavalier about, over a hundred million people died due to the oppression in communist countries, and a far larger number of people's lives were irrevocably damaged by over a half century of tragedy. Even…

I think well over 100 million people would have died if the US could have attacked the USSR in conventional warfare, if nuclear weapons had never been invented; actually, I think the USSR would have overrun Europe, the US would have been driven back, and communism would have had even more victims to feast upon.

A nuclear armed Iran is inevitable, IMO. The only means of trying to stop it - bigger and bigger threats, short of invasion no-one has the stomach for - seem to me to only guarantee this, because they reinforce the motivation for getting there.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#54

Post by InclinedPlane » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 7:40 AM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #24

loverobots wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Iran's leaders have stated that they wish to wipe Israel off the map. At least Israel has a legitimate reason to what they are doing and then some.

Israel did wipe another country off the map: Palestine. Yet we trust them with nukes, which they don't have at all .

I think you're mistaking Israel with Jordan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#55

Post by berntb » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 7:43 AM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #47

mc32 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>MAD should prevent this, like it does in North Korea I thought MAD only worked with rational players. Do we know the people who would hold the levers would be rational? We (the west) don't seem to have the same feedback network (i.e. spies) we could depend on as we did with the USSR. That and we had the "red phone" thing. Dunno if that was more gimmick than actual tool. >I don't buy neo-conservative... We don't know…

Yes, I believe that leaders who are able to control a country are rational players. (I think nuclear weapons are probably the greatest ever contributory factor to world peace in absolute terms. I'm certain that the 20th century would have been far, far bloodier throughout its span had they not been invented.)

>>Yes, I believe that leaders who are able to control a country are rational players.

Maybe you should read some history about some of the kings we've had in Europe? (Or of some of the African dictators over the last century. Same thing, different name.) [Edit: Just consider this; because someone is rational doesn't mean they stay rational.]

Then please check "the resource curse" on Wikipedia.

In short, oil countries don't become democracies. It is too lucrative for leaders of countries with lots of natural resource income to oppress the population and steal the money. (Norway was a democracy long before the oil.)

Do you really want to condemn the Iranians to a religious dictator until the oil is gone?

Edit: Instead of the word "Iran" and "they", how about you use a more relevant term like "torturing and terrorist junta"? The (upper class!) Iranians I've known around Sweden were, more or less, as west oriented as any Scandinavian.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#56

Post by barrkel » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 8:03 AM UTC

berntb wrote: post #55

barrkel wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I believe that leaders who are able to control a country are rational players. (I think nuclear weapons are probably the greatest ever contributory factor to world peace in absolute terms. I'm certain that the 20th century would have been far, far bloodier throughout its span had they not been invented.)

>>Yes, I believe that leaders who are able to control a country are rational players. Maybe you should read some history about some of the kings we've had in Europe? (Or of some of the African dictators over the last century. Same thing, different name.) [Edit: Just consider this; because someone is rational doesn't mean they stay rational.] Then please check "the resource curse" on Wikipedia. In short, oil countries…

Do you think there is a rational alternative for Iran other than pursuing nuclear weapons? (I don't think there is.)

Do you think there is a way of stopping Iran from gaining nuclear weapons? Short of a pre-emptive nuclear strike or an invasion, I don't think there is - and I don't believe either will be pursued.

So what happens when you have to think what you seem to think is unthinkable?

Iran will get nuclear arms. What then?

Listen, I'm not arguing that it is right that Iran gets nuclear arms. I just think it's inevitable and it is obviously in their own best interests given the situation they are facing.

I'm trying to figure out what the situation is after the inevitable occurs, and Iran already has nuclear arms. Debate over whether the players are rational or not is actually irrelevant. If they are not rational, Iran will be wiped from the earth. But there's really little that can or could have been done in that scenario, so it doesn't really need much thought.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#57

Post by berntb » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 8:18 AM UTC

wolf550e wrote: post #49

kristopolous wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel was founded by Lehi, Irgun, and Haganah. The evacuation plan which led to the population growth of Israel was invented by Irgun commander Ze'ev Jabotinsky. The sixth prime minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, was also a commander in Irgun. Irgun and Lehi led to Herut, which is now the modern controlling Likud party in Israel. Lehi also had Yitzhak Shamir who became prime minister in the 1980s. Lehi is famous fo…

I don't know anything about Lehi being "instrumental in the invasion of Iran in 1942". Do you have any more information on this? Saying that Israel engages in terrorism and is deeply rooted in terrorism based on actions of two small factions (Lehi was no more than a couple hundred people at its peak) from before the War of Independence which were then shut down by Ben Gurion and Haganah (e.g. the Altalena Affair) and…

>>Saying that Israel engages in terrorism and is deeply rooted in terrorism based on actions of two small factions [...] not allowed anywhere in government is... strange.

You don't usually read much from hate propagandists? :-(

An explanation:

Facts don't matter, the important point is to throw garbage in the right direction -- the believers know they are true, because the jews/blacks/white/israelis/democrats/etc are evil.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#58

Post by berntb » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 8:21 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #51

kristopolous wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

South Africa had a nuclear program, apartheid, and a few interesting property laws. But then they had a regime change and the previous way of thinking have been wiped "from the pages of history"; npt signing in 1991, cwc in 95. SA split in two forming Namibia in 1990, the same year that the talks to end Apartheid started ... leading to the release of Mandela and the multi-racial 94 elections. Sure, in California Engl…

I'm referring to the current "regime" in South Africa (do people ever use that word to describe a state they feel is legitimate?). If you had some kind of agenda and wanted to spin it the way you're spinning Israel, you could say the South African regime is even more deeply rooted in terrorism--Mandela was the founder and leader of the "terrorist organization" MK, and two of the next three successive presidents of So…

I think kristopolous got your point, really. That is why he wrote such a long text about why Israel is evil, as an "answer".

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#59

Post by berntb » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 8:29 AM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #52

Zhenya wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a country called Palestine before Israel? Source please!

Whatever I cite will never be good enough for you because you believe in the BS "finders keepers" colonialist mindset of occupation. No text, however sacred, no higher-power or imaginary friend can grant you dominance over others and their land. It's simply immoral to fly people from all over the world, so they may replace a forcibly expelled population.

You made a claim. You don't have sources -- and when questioned, you attack the one asking.

Why shouldn't we write you off as just another hate propagandist?

And if I would write an argument, not that you deserve the chance to change the subject:

Please explain why the land area lost in present Israel was worse than most other land area losses after the world wars? They have been let go, they are accepted. I'd say e.g. Karelia was a worse change, from any moral evaluation.

The main reason I can see that the Palestine question survived to this day, is because the refugees' lives where destroyed by the Arab states which forced them to live in camps, etc.

Edit: Clarity.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#60

Post by berntb » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 8:31 AM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #56

berntb wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Yes, I believe that leaders who are able to control a country are rational players. Maybe you should read some history about some of the kings we've had in Europe? (Or of some of the African dictators over the last century. Same thing, different name.) [Edit: Just consider this; because someone is rational doesn't mean they stay rational.] Then please check "the resource curse" on Wikipedia. In short, oil countries…

Do you think there is a rational alternative for Iran other than pursuing nuclear weapons? (I don't think there is.) Do you think there is a way of stopping Iran from gaining nuclear weapons? Short of a pre-emptive nuclear strike or an invasion, I don't think there is - and I don't believe either will be pursued. So what happens when you have to think what you seem to think is unthinkable? Iran will get nuclear arms.…

>>, I'm not arguing that it is right that Iran gets nuclear arms.

Sorry, but you do sound like you have an agenda.

You made a claim that the Iran junta won't be insane, I showed it is wrong by trivial historical examples. Now you make a different claim. [Edit: And ignored my other point.]

Edit: If I should bother to answer the new point, about what will happen: Saudi Arabia Turkey and others will start high speed nuclear weapons programs. That is not even in the Iranian interest.