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Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

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Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#51

This appears to be a perspective issue. The writer took it as rude without mentioning the most important part: Was Katz right? We need more context, and we need less emotional argument. If the original presenter could effectively support his position then he would not have left the stage. And I would hope that Katz would not commit such a social atrocity without a very, very good reason. I don't find it hard to belie…

> If the original presenter could effectively support his position then he would not have left the stage.

I don't think so. They may not have been seasoned public speakers like Katz, so having someone outright argue with them during their presentation could have been especially unnerving.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#52

It's basic etiquette to not interrupt someone in that manner if they have the podium. Even if he was right, he should've waited. Real douche move to do that to someone's entire presentation. I'm all for speaking your mind in public, and standing up for an opinion, but timing is everything. Yehuda Katz has poor timing.

I think this post paints a one-sided picture of the worst sort.

The user groups I've been to are very informal and relaxed. "The Podium" may have just been "the chair at a table next to the projector" and "redoing the demo" may have been borne from a group discussion where there was enough interest from everyone (possibly including the speaker) for Yehuda to plug in and demo his way. Yehuda is well known for his contributions, I can't imagine any group not being interested in what he had to say on the matter.

We don't know and we shouldn't judge based on this incredibly vague and incendiary post from a bystander. It would hold more merit if it was at least the original speaker complaining.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#53

This appears to be a perspective issue. The writer took it as rude without mentioning the most important part: Was Katz right? We need more context, and we need less emotional argument. If the original presenter could effectively support his position then he would not have left the stage. And I would hope that Katz would not commit such a social atrocity without a very, very good reason. I don't find it hard to belie…

"Was Katz right?" is not the most important part. It's arguably not even relevant. If someone is presenting, and they say something that's incorrect, there are better ways to deal with it than pushing them off the platform and announcing that the Real Genius has arrived.

I can think of two right off the top of my head:

1) Wait until they've finished, then pose your correction in the form of a question to them and allow them to answer. This lets them save face (since you're not outright correcting them, you're just asking for clarification), gives them the chance to correct themselves in case they just misspoke or were misunderstood, and avoids the risk of your correction of the one incorrect point overwhelming the other, presumably correct, points the speaker made.

2) When the session is over, approach the organizer of the user group and offer to make your own presentation on the subject, in which you'll give the correct information, at the next meeting. If you're concerned that people will miss the point, add a subtitle like "A Response to Presenter X" to the name of the presentation.

> If the original presenter could effectively support his position then he would not have left the stage.

In the world of actual human beings, this is not true. People are quite easily driven to the margins by bullies who are louder and more strident than they are, even if their argument is 100% correct. Lawyers even have a saying for it: "If the law is against you, bang on the facts. If the facts are against you, bang on the law. If both are against you, bang on the table."

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#55

A problem with programmers is that we don't always see that being right isn't necessarily justification for any and all corrective action that you might take. You can be right and do nothing, you can be right and hear the person out before quietly suggesting some alternatives people might want to look at, you can be right and ask their permission to talk a little about the subject. Sadly some people think that just b…

As the dude would say, "You're not wrong; you're just an asshole."

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#56

This appears to be a perspective issue. The writer took it as rude without mentioning the most important part: Was Katz right? We need more context, and we need less emotional argument. If the original presenter could effectively support his position then he would not have left the stage. And I would hope that Katz would not commit such a social atrocity without a very, very good reason. I don't find it hard to belie…

The article is not about being right or wrong, its about appropriate vs inappropriate behavior.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#57

This appears to be a perspective issue. The writer took it as rude without mentioning the most important part: Was Katz right? We need more context, and we need less emotional argument. If the original presenter could effectively support his position then he would not have left the stage. And I would hope that Katz would not commit such a social atrocity without a very, very good reason. I don't find it hard to belie…

[deleted]

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#58

This feels like the intersection of a technology problem and a communication problem. What do you do when someone says something that is technically wrong? I understand not wanting to embarrass someone else, but I also see Yehuda's point of view. People will be worse off if they do bad things in their code, so the best time to correct misinformation may have been right then, when everyone who heard it was still all t…

Feels more like a problem of simple manners to me.

The easy and proper thing to do for Katz is simply take notes and wait until the end of the presentation to make his counter points during the q/a session.

Interrupting someone in the middle of a presentation just makes it harder for the speaker to continue. The speaker is going to be more flustered and the flow and presentation will quickly degrade because he/she is going to be second guessing everything that he/she was going to say. For some speakers, one heckle turns them from an OK speaker to a bumbling mess.

It's also going to have a chilling effect on the user group. Who's going to want to volunteer to do a presentation after this?

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#59
This isn't the only time Yehuda Katz has bogarted a talk.

I listen to the Javascript Jabber podcast. One talk was on Backbone. Jeremy Ashkenas was a guest, and I was really looking forward to listening to it. Yehuda was also on the call as a host.

Throughout the call Yehuda repeatedly interrupted and contradicted Jeremy. He would go off on tangents for several minutes, talking about his own work. The main host tried to re-direct the conversation but Yehuda was consistently interrupting. Apart from him not having good manners as a host, I felt like Yehuda really got in the way of my learning more about Backbone. He kind of ruined that podcast for me.

And I might not be alone. Ever since a few shows after that episode he hasn't returned to Javascript Jabber.

Sometimes people don't know how they're perceived until public reactions like these. I hope this helps him understand more about himself and how he affects others.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#60

This is a touchy subject. I think this kind of behavior is very counterproductive and we (programmers) seem to do it a lot. It's something that needs to be talked about and fixed. Miguel de Icaza wrote a great blog post about "well-actuallys" a year ago and it's definitely worth reading: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html That being said, it makes me uncomfortable that an article called "Why you shouldn…

While I don't think I've ever managed to fully derail someone's presentation before, this is something I too am terrible about.
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