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Charging a lithium battery to 80% only?

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Re: Charging a lithium battery to 80% only?

#51
post #6
post #3

I've given up trying. If a device is willing to lie to me and only charge to 80% while saying it's charged, great, but all of this "try to stay in a range" logic flies in the face of reality. Every device I use besides my cell phone, Nintendo Switch, and Nintendo 3DS has atrocious power drain when not in use. OS does not matter. Windows laptop, Linux laptop, ChromeOS laptop, Android Tablet, Amazon Tablet, you name it…

Even my iPad has horrible background drain. My iPhone is the only device I have that I can calmly leave at 15% when I go to bed and know my alarm will still work in the morning.

Yeah, same experience with iPhone. Can leave it at 20% then when I wake up it would drain like 5% or so.

Re: Charging a lithium battery to 80% only?

#54
1. All batteries have an aging characteristic whether they are charged or not (around 6% loss per year). For example, a home solar array or EV should prioritize the largest practical capacity budgets allow. Thus, the performance remains more consistent throughout the entire service life. This also reduces the discharge load stress on the cells reducing wear, and exposing greater energy capacity through efficiency gains.

2. There are several types of Lithium batteries with unique charge cycle limits. A common 4.2v cell is ideally rated for 8000 cycles if shallow cycled, and slow charged. Accordingly, deep cycling a LiPol or LiIon below 60% into the dead pre-conditioning zone or in the Constant-Current mode will reduce the life to well below 4000 cycles.

3. 80% or 100% full is meaningless because accessible energy depends on temperature (outside 4'C to 50'C is bad), chemistry, and loading. Typically, even the cheapest Lithium charge management ICs have a hysteresis built into the cycle, and will let the cells stand-by after charging until the cell internal resistance self-drains a bit of power in time before charging again.

4. Li batteries do not like trickle-charging or rapid-changing, and in a way the "100%" indication icon often means just that. Over-boosted the cell into the 112% capacity range to provide a short-term capacity boost. This wears out the cell 15% faster, but many tends to do this... so who would know the difference. I'd wager the Apple team added the 80% mode to turn off this boost trick, at the cost of "boosted" capacity.

5. There are consumer chargers for Lithium cells with temperature and impedance monitoring while charging. These are highly recommended if you have 21700 or 18650 cell based equipment. Unlike other options these chargers will show you a rapid impedance change when the cell has an internal problem (dendrite fusing in polymers etc.)

Read the manufacturers app notes for your cells. They will often disclose the conditions their chemistry is stable (Samsung and Sony are usually the best). There are so many various types of cells out there... most of them are crap.

This text is just a starting point, and should be assumed as another ill-informed internet opinion until validated under your own efforts. YMMV

Best regards =)

Re: Charging a lithium battery to 80% only?

#55
Does anyone know how limited charging works with balancing? As I understand balancing only happens when batteries reach their full capacity.

A bit of background: Batteries are made up of cells which have ever so slightly different voltages. If you have three 3.7v cells in series to make a 9.2V some cells will be 3.68V and another could be 3.72V. This is bad, because when you charge the battery it is charged as a whole unit - the BMS will simply stop charging when it reaches 9.2V (or whatever it is set to). Over time the difference between the cells will increase, which could ends up with one cell being 3.9V and another 3.5V. tThis will result in you damaging the higher cells (which if overcharged enough could cause a fire) and the lower cells will not be fully charged so the battery will have a lower capacity.

My understanding: Balancing is designed to fix this. The idea is that there is a resistor in series with each cell, and it turns on when that cell reaches the set point, e.g. 3.70V. That way when you charge the battery as a whole to 9.2V, you know each individual cell is also 3.70V.

This is a naive solution though, as for larger batteries you will have cells in parallel and you can't use this approach there. The better approach would be to charge each cell individually, but as I understand even large batteries like Powerwalls do not do this.

Re: Charging a lithium battery to 80% only?

#56
This is an excellent answer and explanation. It’s helpful for people that want a deeper understanding of what’s going on with lithium batteries and where the 80% recommendations come from.

But in terms of general advice that does the most good for the average person, I strongly recommend just doing whatever the manufacturer says. Just use the device and charge it when you want. Live. Some team at Apple, Tesla, Google, whatever, spent 9 figures plus figuring out how to charge the battery so that it meets lifetime guarantees under normal use. There’s too much bad advice out there. Don’t discharge fully every cycle/occasionally (that was NiCd specific, and it was bad advice then). Don’t obsess about turning things off, force quitting apps, putting your car in neutral, or whatever dumb thing your neighbor said.

That being said, the answer here is correct, but keep in mind how that works with the battery management your device already has. Tesla explicitly recommends a lower limit. Do it. Apple phones limit charge cap to 80% until before you wake up. That’s great.

Re: Charging a lithium battery to 80% only?

#57

I wish they would label it so that it shows 100% charge when it's actually charged 80%, and then give an option to 'overcharge' a configurable amount till 125% (the current 100%). That way it will make people aware that they are reducing the battery life by overcharging, and be picky when they overcharge. But this won't happen because reduced battery life is a big direct and indirect(by reducing performance like Appl…

Almost nobody cares about saving batteries. Those are replaceable and cheap to replace every couple of years. Innovating more battery life and leaving 20% battery life on the table sounds extremely pointless for what costs 20-30$ a year but lets you use the device all day instead of just shutting before the end of the day.

most recent phones and laptops have batteries that require advanced tools and chemicals to remove and replace

Re: Charging a lithium battery to 80% only?

#59

I kinda wish my EV would just set the apparent 0% and 100% points at a level that guaranteed X cycles, where X corresponds to perhaps 200K miles. As capacity and fast charging infrastructure improves, it'll be less important for me to access the top 20% of the battery just to make a road trip feasible. Hell, I'm okay with it just being a lie that I can control. Let me choose those points.

> ”I kinda wish my EV would just set the apparent 0% and 100% points at a level that guaranteed X cycles, where X corresponds to perhaps 200K miles.” They already do! In most EVs, 0% is not really zero: you can typically drive another 20-40 miles before it finally dies. Most EVs will easily have a battery life of 200K miles, with some capacity degradation. Active battery management such as limiting the max charge is…

What happens if you actually do fully drain an EV on the road? How do you recover from that situation? Normally you’d just have to get a container of fuel delivered to you.

Re: Charging a lithium battery to 80% only?

#60

"Adaptive Charging" is the answer to this problem no? My phone lowers the rate of charging so it's only at 100% by the time you wake up. Even just making it easier to replace the battery ("right to repair") would mitigate this.

No. It's better but still stresses the battery when loading to 100%. Best is to load slowly (or so that the battery doesn't get too warm) to 80% or 90%.
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