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Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

#51

Post by benj111 »

Symbiote wrote: post #41
benj111 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it's weird that a 17 year old now isn't allowed to work. Have they not been to any restaurants lately? The major problem is the same issue with things like prostitution or drugs. If you ban it, you lose oversight and make it less safe. I'd rather them allow kids to work, but put proper controls in place.

There are some regulations [1], though I note one of the restrictions is against working after 7pm. [1] https://www.gov.uk/child-employment/restrictions-on-child-em...

Not for 16 (who've left school) and 17 years olds.

They just need to be in education, doing an apprenticeship or training part time.

Re: Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

#52

Post by lol768 »

leoedin wrote: post #32
lol768 wrote: post #25

The BBC seems to be up in arms about substitution. But the workers are self-employed, independent contractors and they have every right to use a substitute to do their work for them in the UK. If they did not have this right, they'd be classed as workers and eligible for minimum wage, a pension and SSP. https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/24/22548504/deliveroo-self-e... Whoever owned the account and decided to engage a s…

This is the problem though. The delivery apps don't want employees (maybe fair enough) and so have to have self-employed contractors who have the right to substitution. Those contractors are not large corporations - there are thousands of them and they aren't very accountable. That means they can readily substitute people who don't have the right to work. The end situation is that these delivery apps are providing a…

> when there's thousands of contractors and the barrier of entry to become a "contractor" is almost nothing, you have a systemic problem

Yes, and it's a systemic problem that govt should be handling. It's already illegal to give/pay someone who you know has no right-to-work (or you should've reasonably known / didn't do your due diligence on) a piece of work, it needs to be investigated and enforced properly.

Re: Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

#53

Post by say_it_as_it_is »

watwut wrote: post #31
say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #15

Children used to work in coal mines. They can handle delivering curry to an apartment building by bicycle. Children were the original riders back when they delivered newspapers to homes, on bikes.

Reality check is that those coal mines children had high mortality, suffered life long injuries and no future at all. You could have picked example of child employment that does not harm, but somehow you picked the one that had done significant damage to them.

I should have picked something other than the worst job imaginable. It came to mind because it was very hard labor.

Re: Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

#54

Post by say_it_as_it_is »

dazc wrote: post #24
say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #15

Children used to work in coal mines. They can handle delivering curry to an apartment building by bicycle. Children were the original riders back when they delivered newspapers to homes, on bikes.

Get in touch with your local school and ask if they can send a boy round, like they did in the good old days. See how you get on?

People are coming to realize how many rights have been taken away from children after decades of progressive policy side effects. Schools have been complicit and aren't going to be solicited for their input. They're going to be changed as well.

Re: Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

#55

Post by bambax »

threeseed wrote: post #36
bambax wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. > Children working as riders for food delivery apps > The family of a 17-year-old who died while working as a Deliveroo rider... A 17-year-old is not a child. He's a minor, yes, and it's possibly illegal to have him work some jobs (although not all jobs, not everywhere), but calling them "children" is disgraceful.

> but calling them "children" is disgraceful We define a child as anyone who has not yet reached their 18th birthday. This is in line with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and civil legislation in England and Wales. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/case-management-guidance/definit...

Ok, thanks for the link (and the text of your post is in fact a quote for that page); but the page in question is from the UK department of justice. In the judicial system it makes sense to call all minors "children".

In an article for the general public, the use of the term is disingenuous IMHO, because people usually don't think of 17-year-old persons as "children".

Re: Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

#56

Post by atlanticaccent »

mathgeek wrote: post #45
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if non-working teenagers don't also ride bikes on roads Sure they do, but we all know that you drive differently and in different places when you aren't doing it for payment and dealing with those sorts of constraints (if I'm not fast enough, I'll get bad ratings/tips, for example). It also used to be normal to not finish high school, not allow women to get a bank account without a man's signature, and to beat you…

> I'm not sure why teenagers need to do anything other than learning about the world and going to school. A couple of thoughts: 1. Working is a way to learn about the world in a low risk way (losing a job as a teenager is often more a lesson than a set back, for example). It’s also a way to earn your own income, which is obviously useful. 2. Not every teenager has the luxury of living in a stable home with one or bot…

You specifically mention low risk in your first point but not all jobs have the same risk profile and food delivery drivers absolutely do not have the same risk profiles as say, a retail worker. If the spectrum of "jobs we let teenagers do" is from Kidzania to food delivery cyclist, I think it's in the interest of said teenagers to tip the balance towards Kidzania.

Seriously! Roads are not a joke! Bikes don't have crumplezones! A significant minority of drivers actively target cyclists! The teenagers in these scenarios are also effectively operating under coercion when they swap with a registered driver! How could any of this be low risk?

Re: Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

#57

Post by mathgeek »

atlanticaccent wrote: post #56
mathgeek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure why teenagers need to do anything other than learning about the world and going to school. A couple of thoughts: 1. Working is a way to learn about the world in a low risk way (losing a job as a teenager is often more a lesson than a set back, for example). It’s also a way to earn your own income, which is obviously useful. 2. Not every teenager has the luxury of living in a stable home with one or bot…

You specifically mention low risk in your first point but not all jobs have the same risk profile and food delivery drivers absolutely do not have the same risk profiles as say, a retail worker. If the spectrum of "jobs we let teenagers do" is from Kidzania to food delivery cyclist, I think it's in the interest of said teenagers to tip the balance towards Kidzania. Seriously! Roads are not a joke! Bikes don't have cr…

I was only commenting on the quoted section above. No thoughts on kids doing gig deliveries.

Re: Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

#58

Post by beej71 »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #14

Ridiculous editorializing with the "This teenager was allowed to work and now he's dead" part. As if non-working teenagers don't also ride bikes on roads. Should just be made legal, at least they're trying to do something legal when drug dealing is always an option. Used to be completely normal for teenagers to work these sort of jobs.

I delivered pizzas when I was 17... Apparently this is now illegal in California, but I wonder if it was illegal in the late 80s.

Re: Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

#59

Post by soco »

altairTF wrote: post #42
atlanticaccent wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are all highly regulated industries/professions. They also include legally required training. Apprenticeships are also not exclusively work - that's the entire point - a significant portion of an apprenticeship is spent in training and education. Do you seriously think it's acceptable to just hand a child tools that can easily get them hurt or killed, with zero supervision or training, and expect them to be fin…

dont they have for a lot of time before, what changed now?

Society tries more to protect its members than ever before. And I argue that's the whole point of a society.

Re: Children working as riders for food delivery apps – BBC investigation

#60

Post by soco »

say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #54
dazc wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get in touch with your local school and ask if they can send a boy round, like they did in the good old days. See how you get on?

People are coming to realize how many rights have been taken away from children after decades of progressive policy side effects. Schools have been complicit and aren't going to be solicited for their input. They're going to be changed as well.

The right to injure yourself is a very costly right for the society - assuming you have a working health insurance system in place. So I expect the society having a say on it as well, in form of laws and regulations...
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