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To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

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Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#51

Post by ViewTrick1002 »

vGPU wrote: post #37
ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #2

This is why the common trope of "The grid can't function without the inertia from big heavy generators!!" detracting the rise of renewables is invalid. Synthetic grid strength has been available for a century. Today the research focuses on "Grid forming inverters". Taking the same principle as powering a home in island mode and stretching it to the entire grid allowing non-synchronous generators to provide the system…

Yes, the mechanism which can provide power for some 45 seconds is a generator replacement. Sigh…

We are not talking about the energy balance, we are talking about grid strength/inertia also known as ancillary services. Two orthogonal concepts people tend to mix up.

The article mentions the critical parameters which historically have been sourced from big heavy generators like hydro, coal, nuclear or CCGT plants:

- Frequency regulation: When grid power crashes or surges, the device immediately releases or absorbs energy to minimize fluctuation in the AC frequency;

- Short circuit power: When the grid experiences a short circuit, the crashing voltage releases a tripling or more of current from rotating machines which signals breakers on the grid to activate and quickly isolate the fault;

- Voltage support: Producing current and voltage that are out of phase generates so-called reactive power that pushes the local grid’s voltage up or down to stabilize system voltage and/or increase the flow of real power.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#52

Post by 1970-01-01 »

crazygringo wrote: post #47
1970-01-01 wrote: post #39

Flywheels are underrated tech for both stability and decentralized energy storage. They should receive environmental funding just like solar and wind do.

Can you point to resources explaining why they're a good choice? Because the general consensus seems to be that large things like pumped hydro are good for centralized energy storage, while batteries are the choice for decentralized energy storage -- whether in your utility closet or in your EV. Why should anyone choose a flywheel over a battery?

https://amberkinetics.com

Advantages over chemical batteries:

>85% round trip efficiency (DC)

>No daily cycling limitations

>No degradation over time

>Full power over full State-of-Charge range

>No HVAC required

>Operates in hot and cold environments (-20C to 50C)

>Fast response time (>Sustainable and recyclable all-steel design

>Safe & reliable–no fire hazard

>Lower O&M cost

>30-year design life

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#53

Post by VincentEvans »

photochemsyn wrote: post #44

The headline implies the Baltic states will have an independent electricity grid, but it's just switching dependence from Russia to the EU (for electricity) and the USA (for liquified natural gas imports). Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia would be better off eliminating those dependencies entirely by focusing on expanding their domestic renewable energy production infrastructure.

Is this an either/or dichotomy? Perhaps both avenues are being pursued, but have different cost and timeframe tradeoffs.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#54

Post by juujian »

rob74 wrote: post #49

Since the article mentions the Kaliningrad exclave: what will actually happen with it once the Baltic states shut down the power lines to Russia? Then there will also be no way to transfer power from Russia to Kaliningrad - will they be forced to only rely on those power plants the article mentions?

Would be hilarious if the authorities in Kaliningrad exerted no time and effort to prepare for such an eventuality.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#55

Post by Symbiote »

juujian wrote: post #54
rob74 wrote: post #49

Since the article mentions the Kaliningrad exclave: what will actually happen with it once the Baltic states shut down the power lines to Russia? Then there will also be no way to transfer power from Russia to Kaliningrad - will they be forced to only rely on those power plants the article mentions?

Would be hilarious if the authorities in Kaliningrad exerted no time and effort to prepare for such an eventuality.

Did you read part of the article or none of it? You clearly didn't read all of it.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#56

Post by cwmma »

crazygringo wrote: post #47
1970-01-01 wrote: post #39

Flywheels are underrated tech for both stability and decentralized energy storage. They should receive environmental funding just like solar and wind do.

Can you point to resources explaining why they're a good choice? Because the general consensus seems to be that large things like pumped hydro are good for centralized energy storage, while batteries are the choice for decentralized energy storage -- whether in your utility closet or in your EV. Why should anyone choose a flywheel over a battery?

flywheels can go through charge and discharge cycles pretty much infinitely at least compared to batteries. Somebody posted a chart a chart on reddit recently comparing energy storage technologies based on how long they need to discharge for and how frequently https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/17r9q6s/oc...

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#57

Post by crazygringo »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #52
crazygringo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to resources explaining why they're a good choice? Because the general consensus seems to be that large things like pumped hydro are good for centralized energy storage, while batteries are the choice for decentralized energy storage -- whether in your utility closet or in your EV. Why should anyone choose a flywheel over a battery?

https://amberkinetics.com Advantages over chemical batteries: >85% round trip efficiency (DC) >No daily cycling limitations >No degradation over time >Full power over full State-of-Charge range >No HVAC required >Operates in hot and cold environments (-20C to 50C) >Fast response time ( >Sustainable and recyclable all-steel design >Safe & reliable–no fire hazard >Lower O&M cost >30-year design life

Thanks -- what about disadvantages? Surely it's not all advantages.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#58

Post by PartiallyTyped »

chx wrote: post #31

As an aside, one of the most stunning proofs of how successful the European Union is happened with the grid. On 8 January 2021, the synchronous area of Continental Europe split into two, the system separation resulted in a deficit of power (approx. -6.3 GW) in the North-West Area and a surplus of power (approx. +6.3 GW) in the South-East Area, The reaction speed was something to behold. The event happened at 14:05 CE…

I found this article from bloomberg on the event!

> Europe’s grid, which is usually connected from Lisbon to Istanbul, split into two as the northwest and southeast regions struggled to keep the same frequency. The problem originated in Croatia and led to the equivalent of 200,000 households losing power across Europe. Supply to industrial sites was cut in France and Italy.

> Transmission grids need to stay at a frequency of 50 hertz to operate smoothly and any deviations can damage equipment that’s connected. Had the frequency swings not been reduced within minutes, it could have caused damage across the entire European high voltage network, potentially causing blackouts for millions.

> A fault at a substation that caused overloading on other parts of Croatia’s grid has been identified as the cause of the issue, network operators concluded Tuesday.

> “The problem isn’t posed by growing green electricity directly but by shrinking conventional capacity,” said Eglantine Kuenle, chief electricity systems modeler at the EWI Institute of Energy Economics at Cologne University. “The upshot is a gap in secure power generation and grid balancing that must be fixed.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20230621192146/https://www.bloom...

----

Personal thoughts. I knew we had an interconnected grid, but I had no idea it span from Portugal to Türkiye, nor that the rest of Scandinavia wasn't connected. For a system as critical, and as complex, it seems like a feat of engineering on all sides involved.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#59

Post by vetinari »

rob74 wrote: post #49

Since the article mentions the Kaliningrad exclave: what will actually happen with it once the Baltic states shut down the power lines to Russia? Then there will also be no way to transfer power from Russia to Kaliningrad - will they be forced to only rely on those power plants the article mentions?

Submarine power lines exist; Baltic and North Sea are full of them.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#60

Post by auspiv »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #52
crazygringo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to resources explaining why they're a good choice? Because the general consensus seems to be that large things like pumped hydro are good for centralized energy storage, while batteries are the choice for decentralized energy storage -- whether in your utility closet or in your EV. Why should anyone choose a flywheel over a battery?

https://amberkinetics.com Advantages over chemical batteries: >85% round trip efficiency (DC) >No daily cycling limitations >No degradation over time >Full power over full State-of-Charge range >No HVAC required >Operates in hot and cold environments (-20C to 50C) >Fast response time ( >Sustainable and recyclable all-steel design >Safe & reliable–no fire hazard >Lower O&M cost >30-year design life

You have listed the advantages directly from a company that sells flywheel devices. Surely there are no biases here.
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