Tragedy of return to hostile offices • Hacker News Board

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#51

Post by chasd00 » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #13

So, I have often worked remotely, think it's fine, and makes sense in some cases. But, honestly, this is a professional-class issue, and every article about it seems written from a viewpoint that has forgotten about most of the population. The waitress and cook never had the option of working remotely, nor did the factory worker, the construction worker, the taxicab driver, the truck driver, etc. etc. Most of the pop…

I've been WFH for a decade, at the end of the day, if i'm forced to come in to an office then i'll just take my business elsewhere. There are plenty of companies willing to pay me for my time and more than happy to have me work remote. I don't see how i could possibly be the only one.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#52

Post by awalias » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

I wrote a bit about why we’ll stay remote at Supabase (https://supabase.com/blog/why-supabase-remote), there’s plenty of drivers both on the company side and on the employee side.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#53

Post by mplewis » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:45 PM UTC

kfk wrote: post #37

bcrosby95 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife works customer service remotely. > The longer we bemoan being forced to go to work in order to get paid, the more the rest of the population becomes convinced that the professional class is entitled and a bit spoiled. I stopped caring about what random strangers think when I was in high school. The correct answer to this is to tell these random people who have no skin in the game to fuck off.

I think your answer basically proves his point that we are becoming a highly entitled group of people. We struggle to empathize with other workers and, I would say, companies and managers. We tell ourselves this very simplistic stories like "all managers are bad", "all office work is a waste of time", "I should just get tasks on my async proj manager tool". I am telling you, with this level of entitlement, just hope…

Or unionize.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#54

Post by Zigurd » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

lobsterslive wrote: post #16

Having your own private bathroom is a really underrated perk of WFH. There are of course many more benefits to WFH, but using your own bathroom is something no office and their disgusting communal bathrooms could ever compete with.

That's the output side. Ii could do without a $15 tuna sandwich from Tatte, too. That adds up.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#55

Post by varispeed » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

> Working physically together, in the same space, as a whole team, can be extremely enabling.

I am still not convinced "in the same space" makes any difference. I couldn't care less if co-worker is sitting next to me or on the other side of the country. But in person, you get an extra cognitive load of being around people. Someone brings smelly sandwich, someone else forgot to shower then another one keeps chewing gum and making loud mouth noises.

> Supporting a joyful environment.

One man's joy is another man misery. Certainly having people making morning journey from across the country and then observing how they "work" may be joyful experience for a manager feeling insecure.

Best compromise I saw is that if someone can't work at home, company gives them vouchers at their local co-working space of their choosing. No commute and office experience.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#56

Post by toolz » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

chasd00 wrote: post #39

Devasta wrote: post #19

I work in Cork, Ireland. My boss is in Dublin, his boss Singapore, my staff in Nova Scotia, Devs in Manila, clients in London and New York. I'm always working remotely, no matter where I am, as is anyone who works in any multi office company. The RTO is being entirely driven from the top by institutional investors wanting to avoid losses on property investments and from the bottom by those who have yet to grapple wit…

> The RTO is being entirely driven from the top by institutional investors wanting to avoid losses on property investments and from the bottom by those who have yet to grapple with the fact they dont have friends or hobbies and need you in the office so that they dont feel like such embarrassing losers. I know i'm supposed to "contribute to the conversation" but it's important to recognize that the above point is exa…

also important to read the nuance of them "feeling" like losers. Obviously if you're working in tech there's little chance of you actually being a loser in your career (which is probably the most difficult place to find success) so really they'd just need to put some effort into being social and these people would be doing well for themselves, however, in-office can be a huge crutch for people to pretend like they have a social life.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#57

Post by oneoff777 » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #14

mdgrech23 wrote: post #6

I think at the team level most individuals do want to make change and work in the most efficient way possible it's just at big multinational corporations what you can modify about your environment can be extremely limited.

Maybe. I do think there are a fair number of people who recognize there are downsides to never seeing coworkers in person. But, given the option, it's a tradeoff they'll make so they don't need to commute.

I don't understand why it is always either working in the office or "never seeing coworkers in person". I work remotely full time, and every three months, we gather with my team for a couple of days.

Those gatherings are great. Working with my team remotely is also great.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#58

Post by IggleSniggle » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

pid-1 wrote: post #35

Devasta wrote: post #19

I work in Cork, Ireland. My boss is in Dublin, his boss Singapore, my staff in Nova Scotia, Devs in Manila, clients in London and New York. I'm always working remotely, no matter where I am, as is anyone who works in any multi office company. The RTO is being entirely driven from the top by institutional investors wanting to avoid losses on property investments and from the bottom by those who have yet to grapple wit…

How does that work? Are institucional investors writing "plz return to office or we are going bust" emails to every company?

I would imagine it's more nuanced cues like expressing skepticism at key moments that encourage alternate choices

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#59

Post by ericbarrett » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #40

tristor wrote: post #10

One of the primary reasons that remote work improves productivity is that it allows employees to tailor their environment to their needs, rather than be forced into a hostile office space that requires kafkaesque bureaucratic bullshit to make even minor changes. I once had a former employer force me to take an espresso machine home that I had brought to work because it created a situation where a different shift was…

I think this is correct. It's why, before the pandemic normalized remote work, offices were popular. What's disheartening is that a lot of "return to office" plans I've heard of from friends involve conditions even worse than what was there before. For example, hot-desking replacing the previous (also terrible) open office. I'm too young to have lived through the golden age of engineers actually having an office to w…

I keep saying—if you want me to return to the office, give me an office. Or even a cubicle. Why even enforce a hot-desking setup when the space is 20% full? It makes no sense at all!

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#60

Post by Galanwe » Mon, Nov 13, 2023, 2:48 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #10

One of the primary reasons that remote work improves productivity is that it allows employees to tailor their environment to their needs, rather than be forced into a hostile office space that requires kafkaesque bureaucratic bullshit to make even minor changes. I once had a former employer force me to take an espresso machine home that I had brought to work because it created a situation where a different shift was…

> remote work [...] allows employees to tailor their environment to their needs, rather than be forced into a hostile office space

Some office spaces being bad doesn't imply we should get rid of office spaces overall.

If the company you're working for is so crazy on its office requirements, it could be as crazy with its remote work requirements.

Seems like this is a company specific issue, not an office vs remote issue.

Seems like you've been at a fair share of bad companies, but that's doesn't generalize to a broader picture of all office spaces.

I would oppose you _my_ office experience (which ofc doesn't generalize either), which is overwhelmingly positive. Yet I won't argue that because my experience is good, everyone should feel the same.