The unstated truth here is that when you advertise in order to get PERM certification, you really don't actually want to get applications. The 99% scenario is you've already got an employee who is on a non-immigrant visa, that you're invested in, and that you want to get onto the green card trajectory.
Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
51–60 of 275 posts
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#52I'm pretty sympathetic to Apple here. The article makes it sound like they did this for no reason, but the point of these hidden PERM positions is to be escape valves for the bonkers H1B system, which otherwise requires that skilled, valuable employees get booted out of the country after 3-6 years. If the government doesn't want Apple jumping through loopholes they should pass a more reasonable skilled visa program.
Still a bit hard to explain why Apple appeared to be hiding these jobs from qualified native candidates, refugees, and asylees.
Because they don't want to be compelled by nonsensical immigration restrictions to fire and deport an existing employee they're happy with and hire someone else in their place.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#53I suspect that this is more a "certain managers wanted certain types of employees," as opposed to a systemic, companywide decree from Up High (like IBM's ageism). Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. If anything, a lot of managers like H1Bs, because they can drive them like slaves. I've seen exactly that, in front of my own eyes. It's pretty disturbing, if you are a manager like me.
Weren't Apple one of the ringleaders in the conspiracy to suppress wages between the large tech companies a few years back?
Yes, ten years back[0]:
> In one email exchange after a Google recruiter solicited an Apple employee, Schmidt told Jobs that the recruiter would be fired, court documents show. Jobs then forwarded Schmidt’s note to a top Apple human resources executive with a smiley face.
> Apple, Google, Adobe and Intel in 2010 settled a U.S. Department of Justice probe by agreeing not to enter into such no-hire deals in the future. The four companies had since been fighting the civil antitrust class action.
0. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-google-settlement-i...
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#54The unstated truth here is that when you advertise in order to get PERM certification, you really don't actually want to get applications. The 99% scenario is you've already got an employee who is on a non-immigrant visa, that you're invested in, and that you want to get onto the green card trajectory.
What are the incentives at Play here? You seem to know the rules of the game.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#55Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…
This.
If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain.
There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a green card? Why make the company jump through hoops like having to advertise a position that’s not actually open?
I’ll admit that I’m biased because I was in this process at one point. But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. So if anything, I brought a UK job to USA. And to turn that into a green card, the company would have to advertise the job on their website. It makes no sense.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#56I suspect that this is more a "certain managers wanted certain types of employees," as opposed to a systemic, companywide decree from Up High (like IBM's ageism). Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. If anything, a lot of managers like H1Bs, because they can drive them like slaves. I've seen exactly that, in front of my own eyes. It's pretty disturbing, if you are a manager like me.
> Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. Apple is a publicly traded company whose shareholders would not tolerate overpaying for labor. Further: Apple was caught colluding with other major tech industry employers with regards to hiring/salary. So please do go on about how Apple doesn't care about labor costs. And also, look at the wages and benefits for Apple Store employees which are…
> Your naivete is pretty stunning.
Yeah, you know, this is a professional forum. I may not be important to your career, but a hell of a lot of other people that are, hang out, here.
That's one reason I don't write stuff like that.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#57I worked at a company owned by some large banks. When the immigration lawyer came for a meetings roughly once per year, the place got super quiet. Everyone I worked with did basic stuff ... docker, Spring Boot, and I didn't understand how such basic positions needed visas in such a large metro like Phoenix. Yet, the pay was comparable ... there must be some angle I don't understand.
"You will obey your manager or you will be deported" is very powerful.
Frankly, it's too powerful. We need much stronger protections for workers if we're going to continue down this route. Deportation threats undermine labor's bargaining power, driving down wages and working conditions.
How can we expect to operate a democracy when workers have this gun to their head?
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Weren't Apple one of the ringleaders in the conspiracy to suppress wages between the large tech companies a few years back?
Yes, ten years back[0]: > In one email exchange after a Google recruiter solicited an Apple employee, Schmidt told Jobs that the recruiter would be fired, court documents show. Jobs then forwarded Schmidt’s note to a top Apple human resources executive with a smiley face. > Apple, Google, Adobe and Intel in 2010 settled a U.S. Department of Justice probe by agreeing not to enter into such no-hire deals in the future.…
Good point. I am willing to stand corrected, but I've also seen what I've seen.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#59I suspect that this is more a "certain managers wanted certain types of employees," as opposed to a systemic, companywide decree from Up High (like IBM's ageism). Apple just makes too damn much money to worry overmuch about salaries. If anything, a lot of managers like H1Bs, because they can drive them like slaves. I've seen exactly that, in front of my own eyes. It's pretty disturbing, if you are a manager like me.
Well, if X is working for a manager M for 3 years at Apple(for that matter, any company), M wants to make sure that wheoever applies to X's role during the PERM process (labor certification to ensure that no US citizens/perm residents are available to fill X's role) gets dinged 100%, no exceptions whatsoever. The way they can ding applicants takes shape in different forms: (a) make the job very very specific, thereby showing that other applicants don't have specific skills (b) make the job very generic, then ask for very very precise skills that X's role needs (c) make the interview really tough (d) add extra rounds of interviews (e) a combination of all of the foregoing.
Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
... which makes the DoJ going after SpaceX for allegedly not hiring refugees/non-citizens all the stranger.
Because those people were able to legally do some of those jobs, but SpaceX chose not to consider them because it would be more administration/bureaucracy for SpaceX. Ergo, discriminating on the basis of their status. It was the same with disabilities, leading to the creation of the ADA. Companies would argue that they shouldn't have to hire someone in a wheelchair because it would cost them money to build wheelchair…
The reality is that the regulations and restrictions in the other direction are much more severe. It's not that SpaceX cares about whom they hire; they'd hire anyone competent. The gov. will come down hard on export control and other issues if SpaceX slips up. So SpaceX essentially said fck it, just be a citizen or LPR. And this is more a sign of exasperation than anything else.