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Lessons learned by a software guy venturing into hardware

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Re: Lessons learned by a software guy venturing into hardware

#51

Post by junon »

nickelpro wrote: post #45
junon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is great advice. The concepts haven't changed much - electricity and physics don't change at all - we just have new techniques and the scale is way larger than before.

Electricity and physics change immensely with scale. The kinds of slop you could get away with at very slow speed and relatively low powers on old hardware are not allowed for with modern high-speed technologies. In the context of PCB design, even something as simple as decap sizing and placement becomes tricky as clock rate increases. EE students regularly suffer through voltage drops and ground bounce from poorly m…

I didn't mean that, I just meant that the laws of physics don't evolve as the industry evolves - they're constant.

Re: Lessons learned by a software guy venturing into hardware

#52

Post by nickelpro »

junon wrote: post #51
nickelpro wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electricity and physics change immensely with scale. The kinds of slop you could get away with at very slow speed and relatively low powers on old hardware are not allowed for with modern high-speed technologies. In the context of PCB design, even something as simple as decap sizing and placement becomes tricky as clock rate increases. EE students regularly suffer through voltage drops and ground bounce from poorly m…

I didn't mean that, I just meant that the laws of physics don't evolve as the industry evolves - they're constant.

"The laws of the universe are constant" is not useful advice for learning anything.

Which subset of said laws is applicable for electrical engineering has changed immensely over the years, and studying old hardware will not prepare the student for modern design.

Re: Lessons learned by a software guy venturing into hardware

#53

Post by SomeoneFromCA »

sweetjuly wrote: post #50
SomeoneFromCA wrote: post #28

The point about "not doing something in hardware if can be done in software", is although mostly true, is less so when one takes FPGA into consideration, where the difference between hard in soft is blurred.

Eh, not really. FPGA folks will tell you the exact same thing. Digital design and verification is much harder and more time consuming than SW. The suggestion has always been to start your implementation in SW and if you just can't make it work (ex. no reasonable uC can keep up) only then do you reach for an FPGA.

My point is that VHDL/Verilog is both hardware and software. OTOH I find FPGA "programming" with VHDL considerably easier than actual embedded programming. No need to fight for CPU clocks, no indeterminism is execution time etc.

Re: Lessons learned by a software guy venturing into hardware

#54

Post by therealcamino »

logronoide wrote: post #37
nickelpro wrote: post #16

Just like "software" is a huge field with a wide variety of technologies, payscales, opportunities, and niches, so it is hardware. You wouldn't expect someone writing about the opportunities and lessons from the JavaScript/CSS frontend world to have a huge amount of insight into the work and opportunities of firmware developers. So it is with hardware, and personally it frustrates me when software people think they c…

As the author of the blog post, it’s disappointing to hear that you didn’t enjoy it. My article was never about claiming to be a hardware expert, but rather about sharing my personal experience as a newcomer for those interested. What I find concerning is the unwelcoming attitude towards newcomers like myself, prevalent in some hardware and electronics communities. My critique in the article is directed at this exclu…

I think several of the slightly negative responses are because the article is about "creating a side project for a specific user segment...in a tiny market," plus discussion of business considerations, and the headline suggests something much broader.

The HN audience has folks from all aspects of hardware design, from architecture, to RTL coding, to physical design, or hobbyists programming FPGAs, etc., Saying "hardware was an entirely new world for me. I found it to be an unforgiving, harsh, complex terrain," just sounds wrong to them, like you're drawing conclusions about a huge field based on a narrow hobby project.

You seem to have set out to write an opinionated piece with a particular point of view, and said in your intro that you were going to be controversial, so you must have expected not everyone would agree with everything you said.

Re: Lessons learned by a software guy venturing into hardware

#55

Post by jdboyd »

mips_r4300i wrote: post #43
imtringued wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two week wait just tells me you don't value your time during the rapid prototyping stage. Why exactly do you need a manufacturing process during prototyping that is exactly the same as your manufacturing process? Ok the domestic manufacturer charges 50€ more for the same PCB (price at 10 units) but they offer rapid turnaround including shipping in three or even less days.

As far as spinning boards goes, you can get bare pcbs back from China in a couple weeks. If you pay extra, that can be 10 days. I use a Korean quickturn when I need the PCB shipped within 3 days, but it costs a pretty penny. Producing PCBs domestically in the US is a sad joke. There are only 3 types of fabs here: 1. Stuck in the 80s and can't do much more than 2 layers and 10/10mil 2. Super high-end govt contractor I…

Would you mind providing a reference to the Korean quick term service do you use?

Re: Lessons learned by a software guy venturing into hardware

#56

Post by RetroTechie »

nalydmerc wrote: post #48
logronoide wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I felt like using Amazon Web Services for the first time in 2006! Literally I say that manufacturing is like using AWS in 2006…

As an EE/firmware engineer working in the field, don't listen to the naysayers. Just because it's not some 10 layer RF board doesn't mean it's not a rewarding project and a worthwhile product. For the record, the products we design and assemble in-house are only 4 layer boards, and our business is doing just fine.There's too much elitism in engineering. I think the article is awesome; you found out a lot of pain poin…

> I think the article is awesome; you found out a lot of pain points that I deal with regularly.

Imho the most valueable part of the article is between the lines: showing how many aspects are in play, how long the route from first experiments to shippable product can be.

The devil is in the details. And those details can differ a lot depending on project, expertise or suppliers. For example one pcb manufacturer may have very different capabilities, pricing structure or quality control than another. Picking suitable components is almost an art in itself. Etc etc.

Re: Lessons learned by a software guy venturing into hardware

#58

Post by mips_r4300i »

jdboyd wrote: post #55
mips_r4300i wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as spinning boards goes, you can get bare pcbs back from China in a couple weeks. If you pay extra, that can be 10 days. I use a Korean quickturn when I need the PCB shipped within 3 days, but it costs a pretty penny. Producing PCBs domestically in the US is a sad joke. There are only 3 types of fabs here: 1. Stuck in the 80s and can't do much more than 2 layers and 10/10mil 2. Super high-end govt contractor I…

Would you mind providing a reference to the Korean quick term service do you use?

U&I quickturnpcb.co.kr
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