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As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

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Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#51

Post by quonn »

lastdong wrote: post #44
quonn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It‘s not misleading. You take home 9600 in my opinion. What you call the marginal rate is applied to the full salary as far as I know. And the social security is also applied to the full amount unless the person is employed by a Portuguese company that would pay half. Even the most optimistic tax accountants say around 70% minimum is to be paid with various options applied. That would leave 24.000. Portugal has many…

Employed by a portuguese company 80000€ / year is taxed average 42.8%, take home after tax: 45728€ This gives you a monthly pay after tax of 3811€ (way above average in the country, which unfortunately is really low)

Right. But as a nomad you cannot just give up your own health insurance and you cannot just stop paying into a foreign retirement fund yourself. Portugal won‘t allow you to deduce that, of course, and it‘s another 1500-2000 per month to subtract in case of private insurance for example.

Leaving around < 2000 net. And as I said that‘s without the mandatory social security problem on foreign income.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#52

Post by quonn »

netsharc wrote: post #38
quonn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It‘s not misleading. You take home 9600 in my opinion. What you call the marginal rate is applied to the full salary as far as I know. And the social security is also applied to the full amount unless the person is employed by a Portuguese company that would pay half. Even the most optimistic tax accountants say around 70% minimum is to be paid with various options applied. That would leave 24.000. Portugal has many…

3 words make your argument smell: "in my opinion". Are we talking facts or your opinion being represented as facts? So if it's facts, got sources?

Sure. I live there and talked to plenty of local accountants.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#53

Post by quonn »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #25
amadeuspagel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a limited supply of apartments. If a digital nomad lives in one, then a native portuguese can't live there. This is basic math.

What limits the supply? Are they not allowed to build new apartments in Portugal?

The salaries are extremely low and construction in Lisbon or around is not cheap. The prices would simply be too high for new constructions, average Portuguese cannot afford them.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#54

Post by quonn »

rafaelmn wrote: post #31
therealmarv wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portugal is broke, there is no easy solution, they need their taxes (actually even more than now).

Shift burden from income tax -> property tax. My country (Croatia) has a similar issue and the finance minister even said he thinks this is the correct move but there's no "political will" to do this.

In Portugal far more people own houses than in other countries and these people have no interest in voting for such a policy.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#55

Post by quonn »

jmyeet wrote: post #28
quonn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Restrict foreign ownership of huge swathes of the country. This could be as simple as "new construction only". This will make the problem worse as the Portuguese will complain that the foreigners own the beautiful modern buildings. Additionally it‘s important to keep in mind that this is not feasible for EU countries with the four freedoms. It would be like Florida banning ownership of existing houses for Califo…

> This will make the problem worse as the Portuguese will complain that the foreigners own the beautiful modern buildings. I don't agree. We already have expensive housing in every country that those who aren't wealthy might covet. Also, new construction can be done in a way where you set aside, say, 20% of the units for locals in the same way that cities like NYC try to (but, you know, better). > Additionally it‘s i…

It‘s not necessarily legal and the EU has already indicated for Spain that discriminatory taxes for non residents would not be permissible.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#56

Post by quonn »

jmyeet wrote: post #28
quonn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Restrict foreign ownership of huge swathes of the country. This could be as simple as "new construction only". This will make the problem worse as the Portuguese will complain that the foreigners own the beautiful modern buildings. Additionally it‘s important to keep in mind that this is not feasible for EU countries with the four freedoms. It would be like Florida banning ownership of existing houses for Califo…

> This will make the problem worse as the Portuguese will complain that the foreigners own the beautiful modern buildings. I don't agree. We already have expensive housing in every country that those who aren't wealthy might covet. Also, new construction can be done in a way where you set aside, say, 20% of the units for locals in the same way that cities like NYC try to (but, you know, better). > Additionally it‘s i…

Also Airbnb is already banned in Lisbon, there are no new AL licenses given as far as I know. Or at least there was a plan for that.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#57

Post by cultofmetatron »

cactusplant7374 wrote: post #49
cultofmetatron wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

certain things are cheaper compared to what they were paying at home. but you're still going to be spending more than a local would for the same amenities. Case in point, I can spend $2400 for a basic 1 bedroom apartment in San Francisco or nyc or I can spend $1000 to live in a luxury villa in Bali or a nice furnished apartment in medellin colombia. so yes they are spending less. but they are hardly low income by any…

I live in Ecuador so I can't really say too much about other countries. However, a luxury rental in Ecuador isn't really a luxury rental at all. There is no noise proofing, random holes in the walls, and the house isn't vented properly. The people that built it just had no idea what they were doing. I don't really think you can compare third world accommodations to first world. It's not comparable. The quality isn't…

can't speak for ecuador but the quality of a place you're spending 1400 for in medellin is going to vastly surpass what you get for the price in america. 1400 doesn't get you luxury whatsoever.

you're absolutely right that third world accommodations can't compare to first world 1:1 but you'd have to spend significantly more in the united states to live in a place with a comparable quality of life regardless. And this is based on my experiences in mexico, colombia, peru, srilanka, thailand, and indonesia. of course there are some countries where the market inefficiencies mean that even luxury accommodations just aren't going to match up. my experiences ihe the phillpines sounds a lot like what you're describing in ecuador.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#58

Post by JALTU »

Podgajski wrote: post #45
seydor wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"digital nomads" are normally looking for location arbitrage, so they are not high earners, normally cheap-skates. Remote workers might be more likely to create inequality, but seriously how many are they? If they create price pressure then it means there s very little housing stock in the first place.

Have you ever met a truly wealthy person that wasn’t a cheapskate? How do you think they got rich in the first place?

Read, “The Millionaire Next Door”.

And seriously, profligate spenders generally seem to have income sources that quickly replenish their coffers. Or they are owners and have those kinds of tax advantages. Or, they inherit. There is a generational shift in wealth going on.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#59

Post by quonn »

It‘s interesting how polarizing this thread is. The fact is that the portuguese state does not have the resources to create enough housing in Lisbon without foreign investment. The Portuguese will realize this when they have removed all measures that made cash flow in in the first place.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#60

Post by lampington »

ohashi wrote: post #29
quonn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It has ended the Golden Visa and also the NHR tax exemption scheme. It may take some time to become law, but some time next year everything will be gone.

Not quite on the golden visa. Just the real estate option. https://www.portugal.com/news/portugal-officially-ending-gol...

Also worth noting that the real estate option has excluded property in Lisbon and the surroundings, Porto and Algarve for some time, and those were the places where most people from abroad would have wanted to move to.
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