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Ask HN: Did any of you first encounter programming through Scratch?

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Re: Ask HN: Did any of you first encounter programming through Scratch?

#51

This is part of the curriculum in France so anyone who is today around 20 would have started with Scratch. I do not think this left lasting traces in pupils' minds. Then in high school they are taught Python the worst possible way. Similar on how they teach math or physics. I love my country but how scientific classes are taught is terrible. There is a sadistic obsession with math (this reminds me the way ducks are f…

> My son once told me "dad, I do not know how people whose parents cannot explain this stuff manage to go though". This were the words of a top student of a top HS in France. You can imagine how it is elsewhere.

I'm a bit late to that conversation... If you son was a top student I imagine you managed to keep him interested in spite of the mediocrity of the curriculum? How involved were you during their homework etc.?

I expect average kids with educated and involved parents to succeed anyway in our system, but I'm wondering how bad it has become in the past 20 years. All these reforms and changes of curriculum don't seem to good every time I hear about them.

Re: Ask HN: Did any of you first encounter programming through Scratch?

#52
post #51

This is part of the curriculum in France so anyone who is today around 20 would have started with Scratch. I do not think this left lasting traces in pupils' minds. Then in high school they are taught Python the worst possible way. Similar on how they teach math or physics. I love my country but how scientific classes are taught is terrible. There is a sadistic obsession with math (this reminds me the way ducks are f…

> My son once told me "dad, I do not know how people whose parents cannot explain this stuff manage to go though". This were the words of a top student of a top HS in France. You can imagine how it is elsewhere. I'm a bit late to that conversation... If you son was a top student I imagine you managed to keep him interested in spite of the mediocrity of the curriculum? How involved were you during their homework etc.?…

> If you son was a top student I imagine you managed to keep him interested in spite of the mediocrity of the curriculum? How involved were you during their homework etc.?

> I expect average kids with educated and involved parents to succeed anyway in our system, but I'm wondering how bad it has become in the past 20 years. All these reforms and changes of curriculum don't seem to good every time I hear about them.

The exact case (but the others were similar) was when they were introduced to derivatives in math. The chapter starts by a horribly convoluted definition (even for someone who has a PhD in physics like myself) and the class was lost. Again this is the star class of a top-top-tier high school.

I started with examples from physics that naturally brought the concept of derivative and we ended up with the definition. From that point it was easy to get back to the theoretical math track.

France has a terrible way of teaching science (except for biology). There is a several generations old obsession about mathematics in its purest form. The more abstract, the more orgasmic it looks to the ones who create the curriculum.

There is exactly zero use of this kind of math afterwards - you have engineers who have a hard time approximating (and were taught to not do it because it is not sufficiently precise) or economics students who do not understand the statistics they were force fed.

I hire quite a lot of these and the general feeling is that the school does not matter anymore (the other obsession in France: the Grandes Ecoles - top schools which are supposed to give birth to geniuses) and that the people who did things on their own are way way more interesting for companies than the ones who have a specific diploma.

Just so this does not sound like whining: I myself graduated from such a top school so I am shiitng my own bed somehow.

Finally, a lot of the science taught at school is just boring.

Take the first year of "specialized" physics (2nd year of high school). Exactly everything in the curriculum is made boring or nonsensical. You teach students what are electronics layers (s1, 2s, 2p, ...) but when they ask about details the answer is "nah, you will understand this in your 2nd year of university".

How come someone did not decide to teach mechanics?? This is not only something everyone can relate to, but also perfectly fits with the math curriculum and allows for very interesting and advanced exercises. No - better tell them "Schrodinger equation" and move forward.

I am really mad against this: not only it pushes away young people from science (boring, difficult, ...) but also avoid teaching the important things everyday people will encounter: what a kWh is on their electricity bill, how compound interest works, ... But hey, they will know that the 2p layer follows the 2s one and that homothety is an endormorphism.

Re: Ask HN: Did any of you first encounter programming through Scratch?

#53
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My son once told me "dad, I do not know how people whose parents cannot explain this stuff manage to go though". This were the words of a top student of a top HS in France. You can imagine how it is elsewhere. I'm a bit late to that conversation... If you son was a top student I imagine you managed to keep him interested in spite of the mediocrity of the curriculum? How involved were you during their homework etc.?…

> If you son was a top student I imagine you managed to keep him interested in spite of the mediocrity of the curriculum? How involved were you during their homework etc.? > I expect average kids with educated and involved parents to succeed anyway in our system, but I'm wondering how bad it has become in the past 20 years. All these reforms and changes of curriculum don't seem to good every time I hear about them. T…

I remember having a great time in physics classes in HS doing mechanics. Maths was definitely quite abstract but not as bad as you seem to describe. Maybe it changed or maybe being in a "top school" in which a good portion of the teachers are also agrégés is part of the issue?

The reforms I was referring to are the ones pushing sciences even further away for a good portion of the kids with the earlier specialties.

> I hire quite a lot of these and the general feeling is that the school does not matter anymore

I feel like it's still a good proxy to identify people who are going to have a more mature approach to their field earlier on. But nothing can replace passion I guess.

Re: Ask HN: Did any of you first encounter programming through Scratch?

#54
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you son was a top student I imagine you managed to keep him interested in spite of the mediocrity of the curriculum? How involved were you during their homework etc.? > I expect average kids with educated and involved parents to succeed anyway in our system, but I'm wondering how bad it has become in the past 20 years. All these reforms and changes of curriculum don't seem to good every time I hear about them. T…

I remember having a great time in physics classes in HS doing mechanics. Maths was definitely quite abstract but not as bad as you seem to describe. Maybe it changed or maybe being in a "top school" in which a good portion of the teachers are also agrégés is part of the issue? The reforms I was referring to are the ones pushing sciences even further away for a good portion of the kids with the earlier specialties. >…

Ah, so you are French. So the HS is a well-known one which prides itself as incredible. I went there myself and it was a nightmare - despite being top of my class I always felt squeezed in a box.

I was not enthusiastic when my son decided to go there but it turns out that the school, still being full of itself, has changed and the class was great.

It obviously follows the general curriculum but it is outdated compared to what is expected from young graduates. I mentioned the math obsession (and its rigidity, honestly just reading the book makes me yawn - while analysis (calculus) is wonderful in practice), but there is also philosophy which is honestly a scam.

It could be a great opportunity to help people think, but they decided to make it something everyone hates, where the marks depend on the alignment of the planets and where the very last thing that is expected is your own opinion. They want the opinion of others, in a strictly rigid structure.

I love my country but the people who manage the curriculum should be fired on the spot and replaced by the ones who have gone outside the ministry to the real world.

We will never be competitive otherwise.

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