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Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

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Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#51

Post by KptMarchewa »

btilly wrote: post #40
scaramanga wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to read the papers cited there without having to buy that book. I wonder if what is defined as "support" is actually, meddling, undermining, and pressurzing children into fulfilling the parents needs.

The book wasn't a compilation of independent research papers. It was produced out of a compilation of interviews done to better understand millionaires. Support was defined by the wealthy parent providing financial support, whether through a stipend, gifts, or whatever. It turned out that, despite the best of intentions, such support almost inevitably wound up with destructive emotional dynamics.

"Financial" was the key missing word.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#52

Post by palm-tree »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #45
adrianN wrote: post #11

How are children in car-centric societies supposed to be independent when they need adults to drive them to places?

I had plenty of access to play without driving anywhere. I spent hours and hours playing on my driveway and in my yard with minimal supervision.

Wow, a yard AND a driveway?

I think the idea here is that children need to have the opportunity to explore the wider world independently, not just a 50 metre circle around their home.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#53

Post by b112 »

Apocryphon wrote: post #33
b112 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the real Foundation books, which the TV series barely resembles, this was part of the galactic empire's decline. With so many studies done, over tens of thousands of years, on millions of planets, each with hundreds of millions of people, there was an immense load of prior work. And meta-analysis was where all research ended up. Just read a bunch of papers, summarize them, and write a new paper. Scientific researc…

Without disputing that Asimov might have brought up such a concept somewhere in the series, it certainly is not a prime factor mentioned in the first novel. "Good. Add to this the known probability of Imperial assassination, viceregal revolt, the contemporary recurrence of periods of economic depression, the declining rate of planetary explorations, the..." [...] Gaal said, "As Trantor becomes more specialized, it be…

Without disputing that Asimov might have brought up such a concept somewhere in the series, it certainly is not a prime factor mentioned in the first novel.

Quoting part of the novel, does not mean other parts do not eapouse other things.

One "decline theme" was that the overall culture of the empire was in decline. And part of that, was attributed to stagnation, which exhibited as a lack of scientific change, and advancement. There were other ways this was exhibited, such as how spacers didn't even understand how their ships worked, because they didn't need to. They had been so static for thousands of years, with no change in their drive systems, that rote repair guides were all that were required.

And that there were few experts left who even understood the drives.

Amusingly, with all the changes, the TV series got this right. The Foundation shows immediate, groundbreaking scientific advancement in many areas, the Empire immediately falls behind technologically, a mere generation after the empire withdraws from their section of the galaxy.

And with a mere handful of specialists in each branch of science, at that!

And in the TV series, again a good parallel to the books, one of the primary characters' planets has reverted to barbarism, rejecting science, demonizing those who dare learn!

Culture was a primary reason for the fall of the Empire. Stagnation.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#54

Post by swalling »

btilly wrote: post #5

This is something that free range parenting advocates have been talking about for a long time. See https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/03/6412565... . For me one of the most compelling data points wasn't even a parenting reference. It was https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Amer... . First published in the mid-1990s, the chapters on the children of millionaires found that the more su…

One important thing that the NPR story completely glosses over is the component of race and class that permeates this issue. It’s not an accident that the prototypical mom of the “free range kid” movement is white and lives in a relatively wealthy neighborhood like the one mentioned in the story.

Poor black and brown women are disproportionately targeted by child welfare authorities starting literally from birth. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7372952/ This makes it particularly important that we actually change the laws around what constitutes neglect or endangerment, not just create a culture shift.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#55

Post by barrysteve »

I don't understand this. We were free-to-play, but it was not unstructured. Quite the opposite, you had to be somewhere on time, in a heirarchy or school structure and there were teacher imposed rules.

I miss that heirarchy more than I'd care to admit. The endless cycles of milking the good while it's good, is an offensive and time wasting replacement for what used to be a well-timed culture.

It is deeply humorous to see fear of traffic and crime listed as a valid reason to keep kids inside. When you list fear of data leaks as a valid reason for privacy from surveillance, people discount you. So much emotional picking and choosing lately.

Parentalism is destroying the West, make no mistake, "security" is a massively overrated parasite, sucking the life out of it's inhabitants. Get off my back.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#56

Post by BytesAndGears »

Tade0 wrote: post #44
adrianN wrote: post #11

How are children in car-centric societies supposed to be independent when they need adults to drive them to places?

I see it as a scapegoat. The real reason is this: https://d2eehagpk5cl65.cloudfront.net/img/q60/uploads/assets... According to this poll from 2014, 43% Americans think that the government should require 12-year-olds to play at public parks under supervision. You could create the most walkable neighbourhood in the world and not achieve much in this regard.

I feel like the problem though is that people don’t trust their community, and they don’t trust that the kids will be safe.

If the child’s playground is right next to a block of houses and shops with people walking around all day, it is much less likely that the child is taken away. Whether it’s actually safer, I’m not entirely sure, but it definitely feels safer to have your kid playing near a busy pedestrian area, compared to an abandoned playground down a quiet road at 4pm. And the feeling is what matters regardless.

And that is a big part, but also just the feeling of trusting your neighbors increases when you live in a walkable place and see your neighbors all the time. [0] That source isn’t maybe the most thorough, but it echoes my experience of moving to a quiet but walkable neighborhood in the Netherlands from the US. People really do trust their neighbors much more here, and I’ve changed in that regard too. Everyone is always offering to help each other out.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448008/

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#57

Post by Apocryphon »

b112 wrote: post #53
Apocryphon wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without disputing that Asimov might have brought up such a concept somewhere in the series, it certainly is not a prime factor mentioned in the first novel. "Good. Add to this the known probability of Imperial assassination, viceregal revolt, the contemporary recurrence of periods of economic depression, the declining rate of planetary explorations, the..." [...] Gaal said, "As Trantor becomes more specialized, it be…

Without disputing that Asimov might have brought up such a concept somewhere in the series, it certainly is not a prime factor mentioned in the first novel. Quoting part of the novel, does not mean other parts do not eapouse other things. One "decline theme" was that the overall culture of the empire was in decline. And part of that, was attributed to stagnation, which exhibited as a lack of scientific change, and ad…

As I mention in the other comment, I wonder if the regurgitation of research idea was Asimov's take on far future galactic dark ages Scholasticism. Which would fit the theme of stagnation, sure.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#58

Post by mikewarot »

I blame Otis Toole[1], who confessed (and later recanted) to the kidnapping and murder of Adam Walsh. The hysteria Adam's father was able to create in the United States is astounding. I grew up before that happened, and yet, when it was my turn as a parent, I was still freaked out the first time my child wanted to walk home from a friends house, 2 blocks away about 10 years ago.

When I was a kid, we were told to go outside and play until the street lights came on.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottis_Toole

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#59

Post by Apocryphon »

mikewarot wrote: post #58

I blame Otis Toole[1], who confessed (and later recanted) to the kidnapping and murder of Adam Walsh. The hysteria Adam's father was able to create in the United States is astounding. I grew up before that happened, and yet, when it was my turn as a parent, I was still freaked out the first time my child wanted to walk home from a friends house, 2 blocks away about 10 years ago. When I was a kid, we were told to go o…

Yeah, this discussion thread so far accounts how sensationalist media covered true crime cases. Child abductions, serial killers, Satanic panic led to cultural shifts where suddenly the 'burbs aren't safe anymore and stranger danger was amplified and everywhere.

Re: Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health

#60

Post by yieldcrv »

btilly wrote: post #5

This is something that free range parenting advocates have been talking about for a long time. See https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/03/6412565... . For me one of the most compelling data points wasn't even a parenting reference. It was https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Amer... . First published in the mid-1990s, the chapters on the children of millionaires found that the more su…

Epigenetics suggests that unnecessary stressors in the current generation reduce biological fitness, which competes with struggle for the sake of struggle when its not necessary

hope someone finds the happy medium of allowing growth without unnecessary stress

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