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Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

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Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#51

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

This need for a cover letter is essentially asking candidates to tell you how much they love the company and how much they want the job. Why is this important beyond making the company feel loved? As a job applicant I’m not going to invest a minute in your company until you’ve read my resume and expressed an interest. Theres hundreds of companies out there employing who want your time but give nothing back. I know ne…

Cover letters that just say how much you love the company are pretty useless. Cover letters that provide additional information about why you're a good use of the company's interviewer's time are useful. I've submitted letters about, say, how I think one project on my resume is specifically applicable to a problem the company has. This both shows I researched the company, which is proof of investment from me, and provides some evidence that I should work at this particular company (or I could have done bad research and misunderstood the company and what it wants, in which case it will help them reject me and help me find my way to a company I'm more interested in)

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#52
For me, it’s still the remote thing. I’m a principal, couple decades of experience, I’m still seeing quite a few approaches on LinkedIn but almost all are wanting a few days a week / month in some “fantastic” office in some city. Nope.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#53
post #2

Seems like hiring has been broken forever. Even with the plethora of job sites like LinkedIn it doesn't seem any better. Someone who can come up with a better way of matching up candidates with hiring managers could do really well, but apparently the problem is quite hard since there's been a lot of attempts but not much success.

How are you going to stop people from lying?

Job seekers exaggerate their experience and skills.

Hiring managers exaggerate how great job is.

It is a problem with no technical solution.

Well you have leetcode to check tech proficiency but is leetcode grinding hire best hire for the company?

There is also bunch of problems like, company itself doesn’t know what they want. Job seekers on the other hand not knowing what position they exactly want.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#54
post #47
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a reason you don’t think a good Java/C# developer willing to learn couldn’t learn C/C++. Especially with LLMs, I feel like which language(s) a developer is currently comfortable with is less of an issue. I previously had no Python experience, but know how to code well in C# and JavaScript. Using a LLM, I was able to quickly get up to speed writing DevOps Python scripts because I understood basic programming…

No reason at all, and we don't rule out applicants because of language. But Java/etc programmers have a strong tendency to be specialized in a particular sort of programming that we don't do, and get very weak when they're not doing that. They need more training that we can afford in order to come up to speed. But we absolutely interview the ones who seem like they'd be able to come up to speed. The pickings seem a b…

What general geographic area are you in?

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#55
I think it's just the after-effects of the layoffs working their way through the system. If you want to read something that makes you feel better, I'll give you a link... But more than that, I'll explain the meaning behind it that you might not pick up on unless you've worked around the press/PR industry.

The link: https://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-boss-laid-off-staff-p...

The deeper story: Business Insider does not write these stories themselves. They just take articles basically "pre-written" by corporate PR/press flaks and reprint them... Maybe, maybe, _maybe_ they might reach out for a "pushback/response" quote and add "x,y,z refused to comment for this story" if they don't get a response within a couple hours. Or they might spend 5 minutes fact-checking something - but probably not: if it's a source they "trust" who gives them articles that make their life easier by feeding them stories people click on, why bite the hand that feeds?

So what? Well, this story was written by _AirBnB_, most likely at the behest of Chesky either directly or indirectly. And the narrative essentially reduces to "Brian Chesky cares about the people he laid off". Why would he pay people to create that narrative? I won't lead you all the way there, but suffice to say it's good sign.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#56
Hiring pipeline have been extended to absurd lengths and now are extremely successful at achieving their true purpose: avoiding hiring anyone. There's no good reason for the current state other than pathological laziness and extreme fear of ever having a "bad" hire where bad means anyone who can't be productive their first day in the office with whatever weird frankenstack the company has implemented.

There's no shortage of intelligent people who could fulfill your company's needs but there is an extreme shortage of unicorns who will work for a junior/mid salary and be able to produce senior level work instantly. Everyone struggling to hire will deny all of this but they also will recognize it completely because it is the simple truth.

Blow up your pipeline, tell your HR department to buzz off with their navel gazing requirements that aren't job related, and most of all, tell your hiring managers to get over their fears and their laziness. The Earth won't spiral into the Sun if you have to train someone on your department's specific needs and should you hire someone who just never adapts, the universe won't snuff out of existence because they have to be let go and you have to look again. Companies have been hiring tech resources for longer than most of us have been alive (yes, even if you're from the mainframe era) and it's only recently that this madness has taken hold to a level that everyone is self paralyzing. Get over yourself, you and your company just aren't as important as your hiring process implies. Billions won't die from a famine if you hire someone who only understand half your stack and some of what they do understand is a dated version. They'll learn and if you treat them well (you do treat them well, right?) and don't do headcount reductions each time Wall Street feels a slight breeze, you can build up a competent team. Or you can continue the madness and profess endless confusion as to why you're unable to find anyone as smart as you to do the work you need done.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#57

At my company we put engineers (instead of HR) in charge of job descriptions, resume review, and phone screens and saw a sharp increase in quality of candidates we interviewed.

I (engineer) wrote a job description for a job, pretty much cutting all the bullshit. Got quite a few good applicants, ended up hiring a random guy without a degree that is now making himself a well known name in the Flutter community.

Cut-the-bullshit attracts talent.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#58
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone on another thread here about hiring in the ML/AI space bemoaned the fact that they mostly get applications from people who have dabbled with ML/AI on the side and very few applicants who have actual ML/AI work experience. But it seems like the ML/AI space is still nascent and growing rapidly - you're not going to find a lot of available people with ML/AI work experience. Given that ML/AI is where a lot of cur…

> If so hiring managers are going to have to start looking at people who have an interest and have done some self-learning in the field. Or candidates who have just started working with ML/AI are going to have to accept lower pay as their cost of changing specialisation. Or, likely, both.

I think there really aren't very many job positions that try to hire candidates who have just started working with ML/AI for a lower pay, everyone wants 'all or nothing', exclusively trying to hire people who already did that specialization change somewhere else; many are willing to pay for experience, but they aren't willing to accept lack of it for less pay.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#59
We finished a hiring process about 2 months ago, along with two other hires earlier in the year. As a hiring manager, 2023 has been brutal — 1,000:1 application to hire ratio (based on stats in Lever; no exaggeration).

I’ve made a point to try to be as open and as fair as possible in our hiring process. We list the salaries up-front in the job description. We create per-hire ”join our team” pages that share a lot more about the role, including the exact hiring process, links to docs with interview prompts, timelines, and who you’ll interview with. We don’t require any formal studies; we hire globally through an EOR; we don’t change salary based on where in the world. We’re also a non-profit with a compelling mission and interesting technical challenges. We want to hire people who bring different viewpoints and add stuff to our team, and where we can give them a good professional experience too.

A few observations on folks who are applying:

- About a third are just outright unqualified. For example, one of the roles needs folks with experience in Postgres at a medium level (triggers, plpgsql, replication, PostGIS, etc) and we’ll get applicants who’ve only used an ORM to work with Postgres). We have a few screening questions that literally confirm the required skills listed in the job posting and use these to auto-reject applicants. (Again, nothing unfair or tricky; just literally “have you used features like triggers or replication in Postgres?”)

- About half seem like good candidates from application but are obvious-no’s after either several-minute examination of application materials or a 20-30 minute call. (Generally failing a screening call because they’ve exaggerated on their resumes; haven’t read our “join our team” page that we ask them to read before our call; have red-flags in our call; etc.)

- The remaining ~15% are reasonable folks for us to do technical interviews, and it comes down to how much their experience lines up with the areas we need and how well we can asses their skills in interviews. (Two-way street, of course… lots of chances for them to ask us Qs!)

Where it’s been tough is filtering through the top of the funnel. In part: ChatGPT has really made a difference, in that many candidates are now using it along with much more sophisticated tools to track all their potential jobs. I think it’s _good_ in some ways, but previously we could use the ability to write well (resume, answering Qs like “why do you want to work at our company?”, communication in email) as a good proxy signal of overall effectiveness of communication. (For a fully distributed remote team that does its work via slack and GitHub, this is a relevant skill.) So we’re now having to do a _lot_ of extra work to try to be fair to everyone and keep bias as much as possible down. (I had to hire a contract recruiter to work with us - it used to be resume screening and initial calls were an average of 45 minutes a day; it went to 3 1/2 hours this year; as a CTO there’s no way I can spend that kind of time).

I don’t know what the solution is — it feels like a bit of an arms race. For every company that’s trying to run a good process, the extra application load is a real cost; for companies that aren’t particularly thoughtful, it makes it worse for the candidates.

I’d love to hear what others think about anything I’ve shared. What can we as hiring managers do to make it easier for you? And: what can we do to make it easier on us?

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#60
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My company is a large one, but we aren't keyword-driven or the like. A human screens the applications. Cover letters matter to us.

What criteria are you looking for in a cover letter? I find the concept of cover letter completely disassociated of a candidate competency to do their job. I can spend 1h to write a cover letter with perfect structure, good intention and really speaking my vision of me in the company, this won't show that I can do a leetcode medium or that my clipper code is well structured.

Cover letters convey the non-technical aspects of an applicant that can give an indication of how well they'd fit into a team. Why did they apply to us, specifically? What about the position or company do they find interesting? What skills/hobbies/etc. do they have (or want to highlight) that indicates an interest in the nature of the work? That sort of thing.

The resume/CV tells you the "what", the cover letter tells you the "why". Basically, the cover letter is the sales pitch.

If you don't provide one, that certainly doesn't eliminate you from consideration, but providing one can give an important edge.

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