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Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

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Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Why? The hardware people at companies like NVIDIA or Apple already have to write detailed documentation for their stuff anyway so that the software people can do their side. Assuming they do a good enough job at writing documentation and testing their hardware, it should no…

1. Hardware companies need some software to test their product, so this will be wasting their effort. 2. Good documentation and testing is probably not as common as you think. 3. It takes a huge amount of effort to write high quality drivers by reverse engineering. The thing about Asahi Linux is that the hardware does not have many variants, but there are a lot more different hardware for PCs.

> 1. Hardware companies need some software to test their product, so this will be wasting their effort.

They can also open source their testing bench code. The only ones who have to be afraid are those who don't care about quality. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" also applies here - I'd really like to be able as a consumer to choose the product that demonstrates the better engineering!

> 2. Good documentation and testing is probably not as common as you think.

Oh, I'm aware of that, and the consequences of that are becoming more and more dire as electronic waste from defunct companies or unsupported and unsecure devices piles up, together with hacked IoT devices causing mayhem on the wide Internet in botnets.

It's high time for that to stop.

> 3. It takes a huge amount of effort to write high quality drivers by reverse engineering. The thing about Asahi Linux is that the hardware does not have many variants, but there are a lot more different hardware for PCs.

So what? Ordinary PC hardware at its core still conforms to decades old standards that can be used as a fallback. Given a sufficient supply of beers, coffee and pizza, every CS student worth their money can throw up a basic graphical OS that runs on any mainstream (i.e. non-embedded) x86 system. Input, output (video, serial, audio, keyboard, mice, accessories) and storage all have standardized interfaces - the only thing that does not is networking.

There is no reason at all to say that the ARM world can't standardize on basic components or at least interfaces. Apple can - their UART implementation, according to rumors, dates back to the early iPod/iPhone days, while Samsung has something like five or six completely different implementation, and Mediatek and all the other SoC vendors run their completely own stuff.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#52
post #23
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With those preconditons, it doesn't even work on Apple devices.

What do you mean? This is what Universal Clipboard does.

Pretty sure you had to configure both devices for it to work.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Why? The hardware people at companies like NVIDIA or Apple already have to write detailed documentation for their stuff anyway so that the software people can do their side. Assuming they do a good enough job at writing documentation and testing their hardware, it should no…

1. Hardware companies need some software to test their product, so this will be wasting their effort. 2. Good documentation and testing is probably not as common as you think. 3. It takes a huge amount of effort to write high quality drivers by reverse engineering. The thing about Asahi Linux is that the hardware does not have many variants, but there are a lot more different hardware for PCs.

> 2. Good documentation and testing is probably not as common as you think.

Not to mention that documentation != the actual behavior of the card. both nvidia and AMD release a ton of day-one driver fixes for new games being released that provide stability and sometimes double-digit performance gains over a pre-patched driver. The only way this works in a disintegrated ecosystem is if game devs become pros at creating driver bug workarounds.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would not even be something completely new. It would just revert the market for computer peripherals and interfaces to how it was before the launch of MS Windows 95. In the MS-DOS days everything was provided with detailed technical information, so you could write your own device drivers, for any operating system. This ended in 1995, after which most hardware vendors stopped providing documentation and replaced…

Do you realize how much the PC ecosystem sucked back then?

Do you have any point of substance to make here? What do you mean by it sucked, and how does that relate to publishing driver specs?

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#56

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

You'd have to define "hardware" in a rather interesting way for that to have any hope of working.

Consider any sort of user-facing device (say, an electronic toy, or a music performance device, or for that matter, even a phone). These are all aggregates of hardware made by other companies. Yet they are also hardware. Being unable to develop such devices along with the firmware that runs them would make it more or less impossible to develop them at all. So where does "hardware" stop and "device" start?

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#57
This is why society is screwed.

All these people don't understand the dangers of socialism. History is bound to repeat itself.

The cost of the EU forcing everyone to adopt a standard is that next time a new manufacturer need to enter the market, it will have to cater to the need of the 1% (of which I am part, I'd love to have drivers for linux for everything).

Who is going to benefit from this regulation? The existing players who can afford to support linux: it will be peanuts for them and it will make or break a new broke manufacturer.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Hardware companies need some software to test their product, so this will be wasting their effort. 2. Good documentation and testing is probably not as common as you think. 3. It takes a huge amount of effort to write high quality drivers by reverse engineering. The thing about Asahi Linux is that the hardware does not have many variants, but there are a lot more different hardware for PCs.

> 2. Good documentation and testing is probably not as common as you think. Not to mention that documentation != the actual behavior of the card. both nvidia and AMD release a ton of day-one driver fixes for new games being released that provide stability and sometimes double-digit performance gains over a pre-patched driver. The only way this works in a disintegrated ecosystem is if game devs become pros at creating…

> The only way this works in a disintegrated ecosystem is if game devs become pros at creating driver bug workarounds.

They already are, they have to because that is the reality on mobile games. IIRC the devs of Real Racing (or another Android car race game) made a blog post on that.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#59
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you realize how much the PC ecosystem sucked back then?

Do you have any point of substance to make here? What do you mean by it sucked, and how does that relate to publishing driver specs?

Yes, it’s a dumb idealistic idea that never worked in practice. Geeks spent forever trying to get crappy drivers working IRQ conflicts fixed, etc.

It wasn’t until Windows 95 and WinHec and “Plug and Play” that x86 based PCs became usable for the mass market

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#60

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

I get you in principle, but the company should still be allowed to sell hardware with some default software installed, because if I had to search for someone on the internet that wrote software for my specific smart TV, washing machine or whatever this becomes much more painful.

I would rather see a 'right to repair' extended to software bundled. Any device or software that can connect to a network or can be interfaced with in any way is prone to security (or any other) bugs, which the customer should have the right to fix themselves, because they bought it, and in order to do so, the company needs to hand out the source code and documentation for all their devices.

Also about vendor writing Linux drivers, you probably don't want them too, there are already vendor board support packages (BSP) out there that enabled their hardware on Linux, but those are overwhelmingly abysmal in quality.

What you rather want is for vendors to upstream their driver into the kernel, so that it is properly integrated, doesn't break the hardware of others and has a high quality, but that process is not something you can regulate and force.

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