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Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

alprofoundation.org

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Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#51

Post by laurentlb »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #24
kuerbel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the scientific evidence points to the fact that ultra-processed foods are unhealthy. There is much more money to be made in pushing the opposite view. But of course, those little mom and pop shops like Nestlé, Unilever et al don't have the money to do this, right?

You realize that Nestlé and Unilever play both ends, owning both high and low-processed food brands, both factory and organic produce? The same way pharma companies are the ones making homeopathic "remedies". Food processing isn't evil, it's to a large degree a necessity. The alternative to processed food isn't everyone eating the mythical, health and happiness-granting fresh produce - it's population dropping to lev…

There are multiple levels of food processing.

Nova defines 4 groups (https://world.openfoodfacts.org/nova):

1. Unprocessed or minimally processed foods

2. Processed culinary ingredients

3. Processed foods

4. Ultra-processed foods

Research shows that ultra processed foods are usually linked with worse health outcomes. That doesn't mean that every single ultra processed food is bad, but it's enough to be cautious about it. It's better to buy minimally processed food, and cook it.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#52

Post by numpad0 »

uoaei wrote: post #16
olalonde wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is mckinsification?

Is it so hard to infer? McKinsey, consulting firm famous worldwide for its ruthless "optimization" of all industries often at the expense of consumers in favor of realizing short-term gains that look good to C-suite and shareholders, causes shifts in business practices both directly in its involvement as well as indirectly by inspiring copycat competitive tactics.

First time heard of this and got the intention, but funny it's just the nerd's favorite McKinsey and not the whole industry, where there are about -1 other names & firms.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#53

Post by kuerbel »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #24
kuerbel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the scientific evidence points to the fact that ultra-processed foods are unhealthy. There is much more money to be made in pushing the opposite view. But of course, those little mom and pop shops like Nestlé, Unilever et al don't have the money to do this, right?

You realize that Nestlé and Unilever play both ends, owning both high and low-processed food brands, both factory and organic produce? The same way pharma companies are the ones making homeopathic "remedies". Food processing isn't evil, it's to a large degree a necessity. The alternative to processed food isn't everyone eating the mythical, health and happiness-granting fresh produce - it's population dropping to lev…

>You realize that Nestlé and Unilever play both ends, owning both high and low-processed food brands, both factory and organic produce?

Neither one owns a substantially large amount of "low processed food brands" or processes significant amount organic produce. They may have a few products that are labeled organic, but that amount is neligible.

>Food processing isn't evil, it's to a large degree a necessity. The alternative to processed food isn't everyone eating the mythical, health and happiness-granting fresh produce - it's population dropping to levels from early 20th century, and most people working on a farm.

From your answer I gather that you do not know what ultra-processed food means.

>Or better yet, let's focus on specific processes, categories of food products, and corporations, instead of making a blanket "processed = bad" judgement.

Yeah, that... is what the category ultra-processed is for. It is not simply "processed" food. Ultra-processed foods are highly engineered products that go through extensive processing, created from inexpensive ingredients such as sugars, fats, starches and often contain a long list of artificial flavors, colors, emulsifiers, stabilizers, and preservatives. Processed foods on the other hand include canned vegetables, frozen fruits, and pre-packaged salads, with a shorter ingredient list and, usually, more nutritional value.

A simple oat milk contains maybe 2-3 ingredients, while e.g. Alpro not milk contains:

>Oat base (93.5%) (Water, Oat (8.3%)), Sunflower oil, Soluble corn fibre, Sugar, Pea protein, Calcium (Calcium carbonate), Acidity regulator (Potassium phosphates), Flavourings, Sea salt, Stabiliser (Gellan gum), Potassium iodide, Vitamin D2.

And that is the difference between processed (oat milk: oat, water, maybe some oil) and ultra processed food (soluble corn fibre, sugar, flavourings, stabiliser). None of this is necessary to obtain a tasty oat milk with a good shelf life.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#54

Post by Ensorceled »

MrThoughtful wrote: post #21

As a vegan who also does weightlifting, I am happy that all studies I found so far came to the conclusion that soy based protein intake provides the same benefits to muscle growth as meat based protein intake. Here is one of the more recent meta studies: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S216183132... There often seems to be some confusion about this. People often expect that vegan diet makes it harde…

Do you have links to studies that show “the opposite”?

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#55

Post by virtualritz »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #33
sgu999 wrote: post #30

Dairy milk straight of a cow doesn't look at all like what we can buy in a supermarket, and home made soya milk is very easy to do. I wouldn't bet on which one is the most "processed" by the industry. Alpro is obviously doing its share of lobbying, but here in France a law was passed to forbid the term "milk" for plant based milk. Soya "milk" isn't allowed on labels for instance. All across Asia everyone knows what i…

> but here in France a law was passed to forbid the term "milk" for plant based milk. Soya "milk" isn't allowed on labels anymore for instance. Even though all across Asia everyone knows what it is, us French are apparently too dumb and would be confused. Good. I'm all for such laws. Soya "milk" isn't "milk" as the term has been culturally understood for millennia. It's not that people are dumb, but rather that words…

> Good. I'm all for such laws. Soya "milk" isn't "milk" as the term has been culturally understood for millennia.

TLDR; You have it upside down. Any white liquid would usually be called "X milk" or "milk of X". In English and other languages. Provably so since centuries (see below).

Quoting from [1]: "Recipes from the 13th-century Levant exist describing almond milk Soy was a plant milk used in China during the 14th century. In Medieval England, almond milk was used in dishes such as ris alkere (a type of rice pudding)"

When humans discover something their language doesn't have word for, a common pattern is to use an existing word for something you know that looks/behaves/tastes similar and alter it to make the distinction clear.

In the case at hand the distinction is made by the prefixed noun. "Coconut milk" was used in the English language for yonx (1698)[2]. As was "almond milk" (14th century)[3].

Millennia? My brother is a linguist. Mainly Sanskrit, Latin, ancient Greek. He said he was really, really curious how you would back up this "[...] since millennia" statement.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_milk#History

[2] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coconut%20milk

[3] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almond%20milk

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#56

Post by numpad0 »

myshpa wrote: post #48
TeMPOraL wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but here in France a law was passed to forbid the term "milk" for plant based milk. Soya "milk" isn't allowed on labels anymore for instance. Even though all across Asia everyone knows what it is, us French are apparently too dumb and would be confused. Good. I'm all for such laws. Soya "milk" isn't "milk" as the term has been culturally understood for millennia. It's not that people are dumb, but rather that words…

> It's not that people are dumb Are you sure? - Almond Milk - Over 1,000 years (Middle Ages) - Soy Milk - Over 2,000 years (China) - Rice Milk - Centuries (Asia) - Coconut Milk - Millennia (Southeast Asia) - Oat Milk - Centuries (Nordic countries) - Hemp Milk - Late 20th and 21st century - Cashew Milk - Late 20th century onwards - Poppy Seed Milk - Centuries (Eastern Europe) - Tigernut Milk - Ancient Egypt to present…

I'd rather agree with GP. There aren't baked rice cake with soy milk icing, most milk in that list are "milk" as the closest understandable description and not by exchange-ability.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#57

Post by paganel »

virtualritz wrote: post #49
paganel wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making a simple switch to soya meat replacements and milk alternatives is a realistic and easy dietary change for most consumers to achieve Pardon my French, but I don’t know what the author of that article finds “easy” in that. Soy milk tastes like s*t, as does soy meat, in fact one of the main reasons we, Romanians, deposed Ceausescu back in the day was because his technocrats had tried to impose on us to eat soy…

> Soy milk tastes like s*t, as does soy meat, [...] I do believe the stuff you had in Romania at the time did. But what is your base of comparison? I invite you to sample the produce a supermarket in a bigger German city has today in plant-based dairy/meat alternatives (soy and other). And then re-visit your opinion on this matter -- after bringing your taste bud's experience up to date, so to speak. ;) > in fact one…

> You, sir, must be joking

Web search for “salam cu soia” and then try and use some google translate on the stuff you will have found, that way you’ll see that I wasn’t joking.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#58

Post by Ensorceled »

jw14 wrote: post #26

I've always felt worrying whether foods are "processed" was to focus on the wrong metric. It also sounds like some kind of Luddite moral judgment when I hear people talk about it.

It’s a pretty good rule of thumb, which is why this paper is tackling “we shouldn’t be in the category” rather than “this isn’t a useful metric”.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#59

Post by puchatek »

paganel wrote: post #22
DarkNova6 wrote: post #5

This article is a big nothing burger. Of course a foundation with the goal to "drive the transition to more healthful plant-based diets for human and planetary health. "[0] is against labeling highly-processed plant based food as "highly processed". Quote: > In an era of urgency to move populations towards more environmentally and nutritionally beneficial plant-based diets, making a simple switch to soya meat replace…

> making a simple switch to soya meat replacements and milk alternatives is a realistic and easy dietary change for most consumers to achieve Pardon my French, but I don’t know what the author of that article finds “easy” in that. Soy milk tastes like s*t, as does soy meat, in fact one of the main reasons we, Romanians, deposed Ceausescu back in the day was because his technocrats had tried to impose on us to eat soy…

Of you don't like soy milk try oat. The better ones taste better than cow milk in a cappuccino IMO.

Meat replacement products are based on all kinds of plant proteins these days. Some of them taste pretty good, though the true meat lover won't be persuaded. Unfortunately they are still rather pricey compared to meat, even organic meat from the supermarket. Whether this is because of the small scale of production or because the target group can and will pay a Premium I can't say.

Re: Labelling soya foods as ultra-processed is unhelpful

#60

Post by laurentlb »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #36
verall wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soy only tastes like shit if you don't know wtf to do with it. Plenty of great food made with tofu but I doubt that soy salami is any good.

> Soy only tastes like shit if you don't know wtf to do with it. In other words, if it's not highly processed ...

It's probably possible to use spices to get decent taste yourself, but indeed, this is not what the food industry tries to sell.
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