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Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

abc.net.au

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Re: Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

#51

Post by tonyedgecombe »

devoutsalsa wrote: post #35
refactor_master wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s strange how bikes haven’t caught on. Similar to Malta, which is tiny and heavily urbanized, but has a massive car problem. 30 km is what some people commute on bike daily.

When I was living in America, I'd drive 300m to the grocery store because I could, so I understand the feeling. I'm also sure it's hot & humid much of the time, which makes walking & biking a sweaty affair.

>When I was living in America, I'd drive 300m to the grocery store because I could, so I understand the feeling.

One of the best things about getting rid of my car was it took those opportunities away from me. No matter how lazy I feel I can't take the easy option.

Re: Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

#52

Post by tonyedgecombe »

lostlogin wrote: post #32
bagels wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, came for the same comment. Add an import tax of 2x whatever it takes to ship a car out. Each new car that comes in, two cars go out.

This has the same issue as the proposed ‘no older than 15 years’ rule. It costs money. It’s hard to get past how cheap it is to just dump a car and buy a 20 year old one. Externalise those costs, what could go wrong?

>It costs money.

One of the benefits of not having a local car industry is you can tax the hell out of cars without much protest.

Re: Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

#53

Post by tonyedgecombe »

midoridensha wrote: post #46
mngnt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually the popular opinion, world wide. It's what we've been doing for decades. And it's terrible. The really unpopular opinion is "let's generate less trash and reuse everything we can, plus slap a recycling tax on everything".

Why is it terrible? The OP said to burn what you can for electricity, so that really should just leave metals. Copper is valuable, so hopefully they'd strip all the wiring and recycle it, leaving just steel and maybe aluminum (which itself is valuable for recycling too). How is dumping steel car frames in the ocean "terrible"? These days, entire ships are sunk (after getting all the fluids out of them) to actually he…

>after getting all the fluids out of them

Stripping the toxic elements out of a car isn't trivial, especially so in a place as poor as Tonga.

Re: Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

#54

Post by mngnt »

midoridensha wrote: post #46
mngnt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually the popular opinion, world wide. It's what we've been doing for decades. And it's terrible. The really unpopular opinion is "let's generate less trash and reuse everything we can, plus slap a recycling tax on everything".

Why is it terrible? The OP said to burn what you can for electricity, so that really should just leave metals. Copper is valuable, so hopefully they'd strip all the wiring and recycle it, leaving just steel and maybe aluminum (which itself is valuable for recycling too). How is dumping steel car frames in the ocean "terrible"? These days, entire ships are sunk (after getting all the fluids out of them) to actually he…

Burning plastic/paper/other packaging gets you a lot of toxic stuff in the atmosphere. I know there are filters and processes and whatnot, but it just feels wrong and smelly.

Aluminium recycling actually works great, recycled aluminium is 95% less energy expensive and some 75% of aluminium comes from recycling. (1)

Steel could also be recycled like that, I guess ships are a lot more difficult to cut apart and melt down than cars, because they are heavier and larger (citation needed). At any rate, we put a lot of resources and energy into the steel for cars, maybe we should use that steel as much as possible instead of putting more energy into more steel.

(1) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling

Re: Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

#55

Post by midoridensha »

mngnt wrote: post #54
midoridensha wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it terrible? The OP said to burn what you can for electricity, so that really should just leave metals. Copper is valuable, so hopefully they'd strip all the wiring and recycle it, leaving just steel and maybe aluminum (which itself is valuable for recycling too). How is dumping steel car frames in the ocean "terrible"? These days, entire ships are sunk (after getting all the fluids out of them) to actually he…

Burning plastic/paper/other packaging gets you a lot of toxic stuff in the atmosphere. I know there are filters and processes and whatnot, but it just feels wrong and smelly. Aluminium recycling actually works great, recycled aluminium is 95% less energy expensive and some 75% of aluminium comes from recycling. (1) Steel could also be recycled like that, I guess ships are a lot more difficult to cut apart and melt do…

I see now. I misunderstood: I thought you were saying that dumping the remaining steel shells in the ocean was terrible for the ocean. Yeah, burning all that stuff is terrible.

Re: Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

#56

Post by devoutsalsa »

k99x55 wrote: post #50
devoutsalsa wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was living in America, I'd drive 300m to the grocery store because I could, so I understand the feeling. I'm also sure it's hot & humid much of the time, which makes walking & biking a sweaty affair.

So you need a 3 ton machine to avoid sweating? Shades and trees are cheap to install and maintain, not to mention the wind whilst riding which gives you a nice cooling effect. The only reason you do not have shading+trees around roads is because they are removed in name of "traffic flow".

Have you ever tried to carry an air conditioner? When you include the power source, it’s really heavy. Do you think someone who drives 300m is capable of carrying that kind of weight? I suppose I could carry a car door and just roll down the window.

Re: Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

#57

Post by devoutsalsa »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #51
devoutsalsa wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was living in America, I'd drive 300m to the grocery store because I could, so I understand the feeling. I'm also sure it's hot & humid much of the time, which makes walking & biking a sweaty affair.

>When I was living in America, I'd drive 300m to the grocery store because I could, so I understand the feeling. One of the best things about getting rid of my car was it took those opportunities away from me. No matter how lazy I feel I can't take the easy option.

I walked a lot more in San Francisco, which is a very walkable city in most places. Just keep an eye out for poop.

Re: Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

#58

Post by glimshe »

Tepix wrote: post #49

These people have lived sustainably for hundreds of years. Clearly, our "modern society" is inferior.

With a fairly low life expectancy, unfortunately. How can we live 70+ years while living sustainably? I'm sure we can do it, but we haven't sorted that out yet, maybe the long-living Mediterranean communities will offer a clue.

Re: Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

#59

Post by peanuty1 »

devoutsalsa wrote: post #57
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I was living in America, I'd drive 300m to the grocery store because I could, so I understand the feeling. One of the best things about getting rid of my car was it took those opportunities away from me. No matter how lazy I feel I can't take the easy option.

I walked a lot more in San Francisco, which is a very walkable city in most places. Just keep an eye out for poop.

Ah yes, the open defecation capital of North America.

Re: Tonga is running out of space for more than 30k abandoned cars

#60

Post by eimrine »

mngnt wrote: post #45
eimrine wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between recycling taxes and regular ones?

I would envision it as a money that don't go to the general pile of tax-raised money which becomes the country's government budget, but be kept separate and be used for investments in recycling and environemtn protection. I am not a lawyer and have no idea if this is a thing anywhere, but it seems so logical. You raise money off an ecological problem and use them, directly, to solve the ecological problem (and others…

> the country's government budget

It just will not work, countries are not interested in keeping the planet clean from plastic and from greenhouse gas. It must be on international level.

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