Live data from Hacker News

French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

france24.com

51–60 of 68 posts

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#51
post #43
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say things like this that are easily verifiably false? I am reaching over and touching my WiFi router’s antennas right now and I’m not being “painfully burned from the inside out.” I’m hoping the answer is a desire to make a joke and not something that indicates a disconnection with reality.

I can think of a few reasons why you might get different results. The plastic cover over the metal antenna might be thick enough to keep your skin away(inverse-square law). The version of WiFi has different frequencies(2.4 ghz vs 5 ghz). The Wi-Fi isn't actively transmitting at full power. Or you're simply not holding it there as long. I'm sure we could come up with a repeatable experiment for this that doesn't have…

>The plastic cover over the metal antenna might be thick enough to keep your skin away(inverse-square law).

Doesn't the same apply for cellphones? They're not exactly known for having exposed antennas.

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Next they'll issue an order to halt sunrise and the subsequent 1000W/m^2 of electromagnetic radiation It's not halting sunrise but there's a directive[1] that basically says (amongst other) "don't work under the sun without protection". [1] Amended proposal for a Council Directive on the minimum Health and Safety requirements regarding the exposure of workers to the risks arising from physical agents — Individual D…

well yes? Can you imagine working on a hot building site for 8+ with no sun shelter provided or even allowed onsite? a simple gazebo is a godsend, and very cheap for employers to provide, its no surprise something like that would be regulated. Heat exhaustion and skin cancer are common in those kinds of industries.

If you can find a way for e.g., roofers to work in the shade, in sure you'd be handsomely compensated. Most of the building trades work in the sun by default.

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well yes? Can you imagine working on a hot building site for 8+ with no sun shelter provided or even allowed onsite? a simple gazebo is a godsend, and very cheap for employers to provide, its no surprise something like that would be regulated. Heat exhaustion and skin cancer are common in those kinds of industries.

If you can find a way for e.g., roofers to work in the shade, in sure you'd be handsomely compensated. Most of the building trades work in the sun by default.

> If you can find a way for e.g., roofers to work in the shade, in sure you'd be handsomely compensated.

Wear long sleeves.

Contact me privately for details about where you should transfer my compensation.

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#54
post #33
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go right a head then but I know prolonged no distance (touching skin) exposure to wifi RF antenna will burn you from the inside out. It was painful but it heals fast.

What makes you say things like this that are easily verifiably false? I am reaching over and touching my WiFi router’s antennas right now and I’m not being “painfully burned from the inside out.” I’m hoping the answer is a desire to make a joke and not something that indicates a disconnection with reality.

That’s because your WiFi router’s transmission power is limited.

RF burns are real, but generally aren’t going to happen with consumer gear designed to operate inside your house.

But climb a cell tower and get on the wrong side of a backhaul and you’ll get burned pretty quickly. You can probably get there with some routers running OpenWRT with the power cranked up (not recommending this).

(Worked on RF gear for years and have experienced high power RF output).

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#55
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird that we're regulating for that Not sure if you really mean that, but how is that so weird? It's a not man-made phenomenon and the regulation would go against freedom in far more serious ways than this regulation does. Likewise there is (in some countries) regulation against solarbeds but nog against the sun. However there is advice everywhere on how to deal with the sun: stay out of it at certain times and plac…

The "that" was referring to the regulation of 4W/kg for non-ionizing radiations in consumer electronics, not the sun Maybe the phrasing was ambiguous

Oh, right, yes I interpreted it the other way. Sorry but too late to edit or delete my comment..

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#56
post #26
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bad take, different frequencies have different absorptions and biological effects...

We're talking about ghz frequencies whereas sunlight is terahertz. Latter interacts with human cells and a portion of it causes skin cancer. Former (non-ionizing radiation) causes a rise in temperature or passes right through. People tried so hard to find the smallest negative effects of non-ionizing radiation (without p-hacking or silly surveys) and failed miserably. This is one of those rare cases where absence of…

E=hv

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#57
post #27
post #3

> testing found that the model emits more electromagnetic waves susceptible to be absorbed by the body than permitted SMH, they're talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation Next they'll issue an order to halt sunrise and the subsequent 1000W/m^2 of electromagnetic radiation

A microwave oven has produces non-ionizing radiation, would you put your hand inside one while it's on? It's non-ionizing so it should be 100% safe right?

Two separate issues are at work here. Ionizing radiation will cause damage to cells no matter the power level (however, at very low power levels such as the normal background radiation the damage is likely negligible).

Non-ionizing radiation such as microwaves produces heating effects. At low power you may perceive warming and nothing else, at high power you'll surely be burned.

Heating from microwaves can be more damaging than say heat from a stove because the longer wavelength means heating starts from one's insides and will cause considerable tissue/organ damage before one realizes what's happening.

Microwave ovens can be very dangerous if the door interlocks are bypassed and the door opened whilst it's operating. People who are seen on YouTube doing this are either ignorant of the dangers or are just plain crazy!

Microwaves, especially shorter wavelengths above 5GHz (that's about 5 times that of mobile phones) are especially damaging to the eyes as interior of the eye doesn't have a good way of dissipating heat.

I was taught never to look into waveguides even when only used with receiving equipment as even the local oscillator can have enough power to damage one's eyes if concentrated in a small area. About 1W/cm^2 has a noticeable heating effect and from about 5GHz (approx 6cm wavelength) the CSA of waveguides is small enough to concentrate EM radiation of, say, 1W to do damage to one's eyes.

For mobile phones scale that figure down as the longer wavelength dissipates the power over a greater area (also remember area goes up by the square of the wavelength which means that phone wavelengths are much less damaging than microwave frequencies (>3GHz).

I'm not up to date on the latest research but from what I was taught I'd be concerned if more than 0.1W/cm^2 were entering my eyeball. In fact, if I recall the Russian standard for exposure was 0.1W/cm^2 which was considerably tighter than the US figure of 1W/cm^2.

Keep in mind those figures were for the microwave band which starts at 3GHz. As mentioned, because of the longer wavelength of mobile phones it's unlikely one could exceed those figures whilst using a mobile.

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the limit? Because it sounds like a lot, it's like hitting someone with a tennis ball every second. (unless of course I'm misunderstanding the definition)

In terms of heat, 4 joules would heat 27g of water (the weight of a ballsack) by 0.14°C Maybe that's why

0.14C/second, right?

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#59
post #54
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say things like this that are easily verifiably false? I am reaching over and touching my WiFi router’s antennas right now and I’m not being “painfully burned from the inside out.” I’m hoping the answer is a desire to make a joke and not something that indicates a disconnection with reality.

That’s because your WiFi router’s transmission power is limited. RF burns are real, but generally aren’t going to happen with consumer gear designed to operate inside your house. But climb a cell tower and get on the wrong side of a backhaul and you’ll get burned pretty quickly. You can probably get there with some routers running OpenWRT with the power cranked up (not recommending this). (Worked on RF gear for years…

"But climb a cell tower and get on the wrong side of a backhaul and you’ll get burned pretty quickly"

No doubt cell towers will burn unless one has considerable skin area in contact with the metal mast. I recall being on broadcast transmitting masts where 10s of kW were being radiated and RF burns were accepted as an occupational hazard.

Keeping one's hands firmly clasped to the mast was essential to avoid burns. Nevertheless, some burns couldn't be avoided, for when clinging to the tower one's legs are often wrapped around the mast or a part of it. I recall a good pairs of jeans and overalls being ruined by the RF arcs between the mast and my knees. The pants were peppered with burn holes several mm diameter. Similarly, my knees had multiple RF burns on them.

One should wear shorts in such circumstances so one could keep in full contact with the metal surface but TX towers are often cold and windy places.

Incidentally, I once had a Seiko digital watch ruined on the tower, its LCD went totally black. Also, one can't use a digital multimeter either for the same reasons. However, with precautions we could use ancient analog multimeters so long as they used copper oxide rectifiers—as they had an upper cutoff frequency of about 10kHz. The only meters we found suitable were AVO-8s.

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#60
post #30
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the power levels we're talking about (5W)? Of course I would. The effects are well known: It heats your hands up at 5 joules per second. Incidentally, Tech Ingredients has a great video on using microwave ovens without an enclosure and how to block similar directed energy weapons that use a lot more than 5W: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_aUOSLuRo

Go right a head then but I know prolonged no distance (touching skin) exposure to wifi RF antenna will burn you from the inside out. It was painful but it heals fast.

"but I know prolonged no distance (touching skin) exposure to wifi RF antenna will burn you from the inside out."

Uh? I've never had that experience, any WiFi stuff I've used uses trivial levels of power.

I'd suggest you read my post on microwave radiation, also the one where I have received RF burns whilst working on transmitting towers where the radiated power was between four and five orders of magnitude higher than WiFi equipment.

Post reply on HN