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On Desktop GUI Minimalism

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Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#51

Post by kaba0 »

colordrops wrote: post #48
kaba0 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> boosting my productivity significantly With all due respect, I can never take these self-made claims at face value. You definitely feel that you are more productive, but that may or may not be the actual case and it is easy to lie to ourselves.

That's true of virtually every comment making a claim on HN. Unless you've done a scientific experiment and collected data, you want know for sure. In any case I'll add another anecdote for someone that has nearly the identical setup to the GP and will say it also significantly increased my productivity. Don't really care if anyone believes me.

But at least there is then a data of n=1. You yourself don’t even know whether it is true due to the experience itself biasing you, so we have n=0.

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#52

Post by adrian_b »

kaba0 wrote: post #45
adrian_b wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always see with surprise these claims about the so-called "fractional scaling", which is something I have never encountered on Linux. This "fractional scaling" might be a problem of Wayland and/or Gnome, but it certainly it is not a problem of Linux or of X Window System. In any non-stupid graphics environment you need just to set an appropriate value for the dots-per-inch parameter, which will inform all applicati…

Now try 2 screens with different pixel densities. Also, it is pretty dumb to call out apps like that — popular frameworks either support that workflow or not. I should not be programming font rendering in my todo list app, that is outside the scope of such a project.

Here you are right that there is a defect in the ancient X Window System, because it has only one global DPI value, instead of one DPI value per each attached monitor.

Correcting this is a very small change that would have been much simpler than inventing the various "integer scaling" and "fractional scaling" gimmicks, which have been included in some desktop environments.

Using the correct units in graphics APIs is not "programming font rendering". It would have been better if pixels would have never been exposed in any graphics APIs after the introduction of scalable font rendering and scalable drawing, removing thus any future scaling problems, but it was tempting to provide them to enable optimizations, especially during times when many were still using very low resolution VGA displays.

However such optimizations are typically useless, because they optimize an application only for the display that happens to be used by the developer, not for the display of the final user. Optimizations for the latter can be achieved only by allowing the users to modify any sizes, to be able to choose those that look best on their hardware.

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#53

Post by jbverschoor »

0x445442 wrote: post #28
alwayslikethis wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many people, the limiting factor of this is visual acuity though. I personally can't see it useful to have more than 2560x1440 equivalent pixels of space on a 27 inch monitor. For a larger monitor, you have to sit further back, so it is effectively the same. If you want to see more clearly, you'd need to get closer, but that causes issues since you are still limited by your available field of view.

It’s interesting you mention this. The way I use my desktop I always have my applications maximized and I just alt-tab to switch contexts. I also am in the terminal a lot and use Yaquake but not in maximized mode because I don’t want to focus in the bottom left corner of my screen. I also put the task bar left vertical because I don’t care about the horizontal space. Doing all of this still felt cumbersome and then i…

Well that's kind of impossible, as alt-tab will show al windows or applications.

The best productivity for me is a separate machine per context (with synergy or similar), because it won't clutter the alt-tab.

Fast userswitching doesn't work, as I'll have to switch back and forth between users (roles actually). I simply want isolated users, with their own filesystem/directory, but still be able to control them at the same time (virtual KVM).

Ideally, I'd create "contexts" or users on my mac, and split / arrange parts of my monitor as desktops. I thought about using parallels or X11 to mimic this behavior, but it simply is not the same.

MacOS's stage manager kind of works, but it's very buggy, and it won't get you an isolated filesystem. I've "solved" having the browser for different purposes by creating separate instances (not just separate profiles, but actual executables) of chrome (dev, social media, general browsing), which helps a lot, but I can't do that with everything

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#54

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

kaba0 wrote: post #44
bstar77 wrote: post #27

Two years ago, I transitioned to a minimalist tiling window manager (WM) despite my initial reservations about them. This change was prompted by my desire to experiment with high-end hardware and a 4K multi-monitor setup in a tiled environment. Surprisingly, the switch turned out to be a game-changer, boosting my productivity significantly, with around 90% of my tasks now occurring in the terminal. Traditional critic…

> boosting my productivity significantly With all due respect, I can never take these self-made claims at face value. You definitely feel that you are more productive, but that may or may not be the actual case and it is easy to lie to ourselves.

I've been on a similar quest but my purpose was to eliminate distraction, and becoming more productive was just a side-effect.

i3 (actually sway) helps me with focusing only at those windows that belong to a specific task, and often in full-screen. if I must use a GUI browser which has tabs and constant distraction then I can do so, but the context switch isn't "just mental" but I have to change over to another virtal desktop. this sounds hardly revolutionary (virtual desktops are also in KDE and Gnome). But it is a lot more "painful" than having everything in front of me at all times using 3 monitors. It also makes me actively aware (!!) that a context switch is happening, and so I end up allowing it less, and force myself to finish what I'm doing before attending to some interruption. there is no taskbar no dbus-popups.

I even use my device for undistracted reading of books multiple hours at the time, without snacking on HN content inbetween. (although for this I've started using another cheap old laptop that does not have network and is only running a few things (zathura for reading PDF's and calibre for converting from different formats). -> hardware compartmentalization FTW

generally leaving fullscreen and reconnecting the network and switching to another desktop is just too many steps and i now only break my concentration with a total awareness of it happening.

It honestly changed my life, made me more focused, less anxious, and more in control. Def not going back to the illusion of being productive just because I'm juggling everything at once ...

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#56

Post by nunodonato »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #54
kaba0 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> boosting my productivity significantly With all due respect, I can never take these self-made claims at face value. You definitely feel that you are more productive, but that may or may not be the actual case and it is easy to lie to ourselves.

I've been on a similar quest but my purpose was to eliminate distraction, and becoming more productive was just a side-effect. i3 (actually sway) helps me with focusing only at those windows that belong to a specific task, and often in full-screen. if I must use a GUI browser which has tabs and constant distraction then I can do so, but the context switch isn't "just mental" but I have to change over to another virta…

I more or less do the same, but using gnome and only one monitor. Most people criticize gnome without actually giving a chance to use it the way it was designed to be used. Coupled with the use of workspaces, it has significantly increased my focus (or rather, decreased my distractions)

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#57

Post by kaba0 »

adrian_b wrote: post #52
kaba0 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now try 2 screens with different pixel densities. Also, it is pretty dumb to call out apps like that — popular frameworks either support that workflow or not. I should not be programming font rendering in my todo list app, that is outside the scope of such a project.

Here you are right that there is a defect in the ancient X Window System, because it has only one global DPI value, instead of one DPI value per each attached monitor. Correcting this is a very small change that would have been much simpler than inventing the various "integer scaling" and "fractional scaling" gimmicks, which have been included in some desktop environments. Using the correct units in graphics APIs is…

Even if there were no way to control the output on a pixel level, you could easily be left with minecraft-like blocks -- there is not much else your high-DPI monitor can do with a client that simply don't output higher resolutions. E.g. if they are using a bitmap icon, that will still be ugly. (sure, they should use vector icons, but what about an image viewer showing bitmaps?)

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#58

Post by rollcat »

fellowniusmonk wrote: post #2

I think issues with attempts to redefine pc computing interfaces is that despite what is stated people are not actually starting from first principles when they go to redesign a personal computing GUI interface. Even in this article just a few sentences after stating we should start from first principles he then jumps into the assumption of the "desktop". The baggage of TTY interfaces in textual interfaces and the "d…

> Even in this article just a few sentences after stating we should start from first principles he then jumps into the assumption of the "desktop".

Agree. Although I can see how the idea of "first principles" can be a very difficult starting point. A blank sheet of paper is a scary monster.

There's a huge breadth and depth of non-"desktop" GUIs out there, some (like smartphones) are even wildly successful. It's good to explore them for inspiration. Some of my favourites:

- Arcan (https://arcan-fe.com/about/) - I won't attempt to summarize, just dive in!

- SailfishOS (https://sailfishos.org/) - mobile UI focused on interaction through gestures / swipes; I've used it as my daily driver for a couple years.

- Speaking of mobiles, classic Nokia UIs allowed you to navigate to a specific item in the menu by pressing the corresponding digit on the dial pad. Once you learned where a particular item is, accessing e.g. your SMS inbox was extremely quick.

- Apple Watch / WatchOS (https://www.apple.com/watchos/) - I've always loved the idea of a device where one of the primary interaction methods was a wheel/dial of some sort. The watch even gives you context-sensitive tactile feedback.

- ZUIs in general (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooming_user_interface) and the work of Jef Raskin in particular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archy_(software) - this is the guy who helped design the Macintosh, but his other work took a radically different route.

- Magit (https://magit.vc/). Many common git operations are reduced to a couple of keystrokes; the obscure features are more discoverable, and the cumbersome procedures (such as rebasing, or staging individual hunks) become simple and intuitive. Also check out transient (https://github.com/magit/transient), which is the "UI toolkit" that powers Magit.

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#59

Post by globular-toast »

colordrops wrote: post #13

Speaking of minimalist desktops, I'm really loving the unix-y philosophy behind sway/i3/hyprland/xmonad. Instead of an integrated desktop environment, you start with the simple window manager (Sway in my case), and pick and choose the tools you need for various things, such as a status bar, notifications, launcher, etc. Unless you really trick it out, there is usually very little on your screen other than the apps yo…

sway (and i3 at work as I'm forced to use X, although this pales in comparison to the author's dire situation) are perfect. I've written several simple text based blocks for i3blocks that makes my DE somehow more functional than the bloated ones. It's just so great getting exactly what you want because you write/compose it yourself (yes, I use emacs).

Stumpwm is also very attractive. Less "Unixy" but more Lispy which is a different approach at getting exactly what you want.

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#60

Post by globular-toast »

I'm so lucky that I get to tinker with Linux, Emacs etc in my free time and then actually use those tools for work. It's like having a hobby car and then getting paid to drive it around. If you love tinkering with computers too then do avoid taking golden handcuffs tying you to a Windows job. It's just so much more fulfilling to make things that are actually useful.
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