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Remove TypeScript

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Re: Remove TypeScript

#51

TS feels like a fever dream. It's as if a concentrated group of people were so convinced of a solution, that despite all available "parol" or academic evidence, they foisted it upon the ecosystem doing untold amounts of damage for years to come. And if you don't use it, well it's because you simply don't understand types and your code base will be riddled with bugs! (lol) The best, most testable, falsifiable argument…

> untold damage

> 10x dev time

> bugs

> pointlessly painful

> it’s a mistake

Your comment seems very emotional and doesn’t add any concrete counterarguments.

Re: Remove TypeScript

#52

I've found the TypeScript tooling story to be a bit clunky (protip: use tsc --noEmit for type checking in CI, but don't use tsc for anything else). But TypeScript the language is great – I spent 3+ years each working with C++ and Java, and TS's type system is much more expressive and useful. I wish people would distinguish whether or not they object to the tooling, or the language.

What’s wrong with tsc on local?

Re: Remove TypeScript

#53

Many people in the PR mentioned the complexity that Typescript brings. But wasn't it an over simplification from the language from the beginning? I mean, in the context of JS 10 years ago, Typescript in indeed overly complex, but in the context of today's JS running servers and very complex apps at scale, it just seems sane to back up the code with types, just as most other languages would do.. In my opinion it's now…

[deleted]

Re: Remove TypeScript

#54
The collective meltdown, bullying, pile-on and emotional responses over a team's decision to drop a layer of tooling is strange.

Yes, I get it, for most usecases, most people today prefer TS, but in the end, the team weighed their options and they made a decision they are happy with.

Open source, as strange as it sounds, doesn't mean that the maintainers need to ask for the approval of everybody who read some tweets and join the pile on.

For those who disagree with their decision and are actually affected, vote with your feet, and don't rely on anything hey or dhh related. If you don't have a choice but to keep using them and you hate this change, I feel your pain.

I don't know enough about turbo to know if it's a bad decision or not, but I don't mind people going against the grain. If people like that wouldn't exist, I'd still need to work with Scrum (in the end, how dare you challenge the collective wisdom that scrum is the greatest thing since slice bread).

They may succeed or fail, but at least they fail in their own terms and enjoy their work on their product with the language they like.

Re: Remove TypeScript

#55

Hi all, I work on the TypeScript team. There's already a lot of feedback on the issue itself from users urging the authors not to make this decision, so I will hold back from adding to the noise on that issue. Every team is entitled to make the decisions that they feel are best for them, and I don't think it'd be productive to change anyone's mind in this case. Instead I'll just mention that I always welcome thoughts…

I’d just like to say thank you for your team’s hard work on TypeScript. I can’t imagine writing JavaScript without TypeScript.

Re: Remove TypeScript

#56
Typescript is divisive. People are passionate in loving it or hating it, not to forget a silent majority that never even tried it.

Typescript is totalitarian. It consumes you whole. It makes no sense to partially adapt it as its supposed benefits will then never materialize. The deeper you're in, the more motivated you'll get to go even deeper.

This is entirely opposite from writing unit tests. Everybody hates to do that, you'll never have coverage to match real world complexity and it easily breaks under time pressure. The more you try to get it to work, the more you hate it and just want to give up on it. Typescript is different, it has a point of no return.

That being said, we should check our passion. Tech discussions have a high degree of confirmation bias coming from a small very vocal minority. This same minority that would advance React, Tailwind, and similar choices as the one and only industry standard.

It's not representative of the wider developer community, most of which are silent. Nor is it representative of every use case one can build on the web, every project size, team size, etc.

As for DHH, it's an unsurprising move. He craves the simpler times we once knew, where web/front-end development wasn't such a hot mess. I think the general point has merit, as to whether the specific point of Typescript fits into that narrative, is debatable. Personally, I think project size/complexity and team size/skill levels are big factors.

Re: Remove TypeScript

#57
post #51

TS feels like a fever dream. It's as if a concentrated group of people were so convinced of a solution, that despite all available "parol" or academic evidence, they foisted it upon the ecosystem doing untold amounts of damage for years to come. And if you don't use it, well it's because you simply don't understand types and your code base will be riddled with bugs! (lol) The best, most testable, falsifiable argument…

> untold damage > 10x dev time > bugs > pointlessly painful > it’s a mistake Your comment seems very emotional and doesn’t add any concrete counterarguments.

Counter arguments to what exactly? What arguments are being proposed? Where? By Whom? Can you quote them?

The burden of proof is not on anyone else to prove that TS is making a beneficial difference. The fact that more and more experienced teams are moving _away_ from TS and not towards it certainly cannot and should not be ignored.

This is just a repeat of the "Surely OOP will solve all these different class of problems, trust me!" conversation the industry already had and I thought we had matured past.

Making a drive by dismissal comment that has quite grandful stands isn't really driving the conversation anywhere. You could have at least disagreed in detail.

Re: Remove TypeScript

#58

Hi all, I work on the TypeScript team. There's already a lot of feedback on the issue itself from users urging the authors not to make this decision, so I will hold back from adding to the noise on that issue. Every team is entitled to make the decisions that they feel are best for them, and I don't think it'd be productive to change anyone's mind in this case. Instead I'll just mention that I always welcome thoughts…

Typescript has been revolutionary and made me love doing frontend work. It’s solved so many issues with reliability that I’d never suggest using an untyped framework like rails for a new project.

Re: Remove TypeScript

#59
It's easy to hate typescript if you're trying to write it as javascript with types bolted on. All you'll see is restrictions and arcane complexity which exists solely to assuage the compiler. If you instead write types first and go from there, the value becomes evident really fast - and you avoid writing untypeable code which likely would've grown into a difficult to reason about api.

Re: Remove TypeScript

#60
post #4

Remove TypeScript, change linting rules, remove Prettier, breaks all PRs ... seemingly with no discussion and merged within 2 hours of the PR. Sounds like a project I'd stay away from. With comments like "Also, TypeScript hurts to write. Good riddance." What exactly is the problem here? Do we have too many developers who grew up on JavaScript and aren't seeing the benefits of static typing? Is a tiny compiler (transp…

I've written maybe a couple thousand lines of TypeScript. I'm an utter neophyte there. I didn't hate the experience, though.

I've written maybe a few hundred thousand lines of Python. I didn't use type annotations until recently because they didn't exist. My first forays into playing with them were painful: it revealed a whole lot of unfound bugs in my code. In most cases they were minor and probably wouldn't have caused a real-life problem. Fixing them was often challenging because changing a function frequently meant breaking an internal API and having to also tweak every bit of code that called it. And yet, I powered through it because typing found bugs that none of my tests had.

I'm not going to say that everyone who dislikes type annotations in Python (or TypeScript) writes crummy code. I will suggest that at least some of the people who complain that types make it harder to write a program are actually annoyed that it makes them write more-correct code.

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