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Deno KV Is in Open Beta

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Re: Deno KV Is in Open Beta

#51

Post by skybrian »

simonw wrote: post #4

I poked around with this a few months ago to figure out how it works locally. The answer is SQLite: https://til.simonwillison.net/deno/deno-kv I'm finding the business model aspect of Deno KV absolutely fascinating. const kv = await Deno.openKv(); That's a Deno core API. It works fine in the open source version of Deno using a local SQLite database file. But as soon as you deploy your application to their proprietary…

I'm wondering if this might become interesting for a Sandstorm-like use case, where you can write a personal web app, publish it on GitHub, and other people can deploy it easily to their own Deno Deploy account. (Or they can self-host if they prefer.)

Re: Deno KV Is in Open Beta

#52

Post by skybrian »

evbogue wrote: post #48
windowshopping wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

import ... from "dino@1.1/utils" idk i just think there's many options besides a full url in your code

In Deno you can load your code from any URL on the Internet, instead of relying on a namespace within a single package manager.

Unfortunately, having a URL is only the beginning. After that it gets complicated, because the "source" you get by following a URL in Deno (or a web browser) has often been put through the blender, repackaged and minified by some CDN. It's hard to read and VS Code's debugger doesn't handle it well. Sometimes I'm left just looking at type definitions and it's unclear where the source code for the implementation is at all. Aren't source maps supposed to help here?

So, I look at the repo instead, but now I don't know how it matches up with the code I'm actually running.

I find Go modules to be easier to understand. They are similarly distributed (many source repos will work), but when you navigate to the source code, you get the actual source.

Re: Deno KV Is in Open Beta

#53

Post by evbogue »

skybrian wrote: post #52
evbogue wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Deno you can load your code from any URL on the Internet, instead of relying on a namespace within a single package manager.

Unfortunately, having a URL is only the beginning. After that it gets complicated, because the "source" you get by following a URL in Deno (or a web browser) has often been put through the blender, repackaged and minified by some CDN. It's hard to read and VS Code's debugger doesn't handle it well. Sometimes I'm left just looking at type definitions and it's unclear where the source code for the implementation is at…

Yes, people do all kinds of things to their code, but this makes it possible for you to download your own.

Re: Deno KV Is in Open Beta

#54

Post by newaccount74 »

phillipcarter wrote: post #32
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the enshittification of open source. It has been happening for a while with a bunch of startups like Supabase claiming to be "open source" and marketing themselves as such but making it really hard to self host for a long time. It wasn't just them either. I would see with disgust a bunch of startups use "open source" as their marketing tactic, no matter how hard it was to setup or run without their hosted ser…

> This is the enshittification of open source. I'm really confused by this statement. What exactly is being degraded in their service? Or in their API? Or in the underlying tech they are compatible with? All I see here is an open source system that you can manage and deploy yourself, with a 100% compatible API for a cloud service that handles that for you, should you decide to pay money to have that problem solved fo…

Good Open Source is something like PostgreSQL: It's completely free, you can host it yourself, or you can pay someone to host it, there are multiple competing service providers, most of them contribute to the project, and everyone has access to almost all of the source code. Anyone can start offering a compatible service with minimal investment. If you run into a problem, the source code for everything is public, and you can often fix it yourself.

And then there is something like DenoKV: There's an Open Source version that is designed mostly for prototyping or small scale deployments, and a closed source hosted version designed for production. If you want to use it you have to pay one company and there are no competitors. You are locked in. Theoretically, a competitor could create a compatible product, but the required effort is huge, creating a big barrier to entry. And even if competitors do show up, any new features introduced by the proprietary service will take a long time to trickle down to competing services. If you run into a problem, you have to hope the vendor fixes it.

Re: Deno KV Is in Open Beta

#55

Post by ShadowBanThis01 »

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #7
simonw wrote: post #4

I poked around with this a few months ago to figure out how it works locally. The answer is SQLite: https://til.simonwillison.net/deno/deno-kv I'm finding the business model aspect of Deno KV absolutely fascinating. const kv = await Deno.openKv(); That's a Deno core API. It works fine in the open source version of Deno using a local SQLite database file. But as soon as you deploy your application to their proprietary…

This is the enshittification of open source. It has been happening for a while with a bunch of startups like Supabase claiming to be "open source" and marketing themselves as such but making it really hard to self host for a long time. It wasn't just them either. I would see with disgust a bunch of startups use "open source" as their marketing tactic, no matter how hard it was to setup or run without their hosted ser…

I am definitely ready to call out shams, sellouts, and "enshittification." But I don't see how this one option is any of that.

I'm building a back end with Deno and MariaDB, and pretty psyched about it so far. I haven't built a back end since I did one with PHP 5 in 2011 or so. Thus far I've found it easier to get something working than I did with the tools years ago. So much so that I'd consider throwing these guys a bone by paying for a service.

But... I don't know that a key/value store suffices for what I want to do, which will involve relational queries.

Re: Deno KV Is in Open Beta

#57

Post by wink »

crabmusket wrote: post #37
simonw wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this change your mind at all? https://github.com/denoland/deno/blob/be1fc754a14683bf640b7b... It looks to me like they've documented the KV Connect protocol they invented to support this feature, in enough detail that anyone else could build an alternative backend for it. This has helped me feel completely OK with how they're handling this. They get an advantage in that they've already built an extremely robust…

I think this is great, except I feel odd that it's just hanging around on the Deno global instead of being e.g. imported like any other database client. import KV from "https://deno.land/kv" // for example If their protocol is indeed open and usable with your own backend, then that library should be able to work for anyone. And if they need some fancy native performance then maybe they could intercept that import whe…

Yeah, this is the only thing I don't like. Having it readily available as a module import would not change anything (except one line of code) and it feels more decoupled. But in practice I don't see a huge difference, it's not like it's polluting the global namespace with dozens of functions.

Re: Deno KV Is in Open Beta

#58

Post by simonw »

predictabl3 wrote: post #56

Genuine question, are there folks hyped about Deno that don't come from a nodejs background?

Me. I'm excited about what they're doing with their security stuff (I love that it can only access files that were explicitly allowed) and it feels like there's a ton of good ideas in there generally. My notes so far: https://simonwillison.net/tags/deno/

Re: Deno KV Is in Open Beta

#60

Post by kreativemente »

newaccount74 wrote: post #54
phillipcarter wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the enshittification of open source. I'm really confused by this statement. What exactly is being degraded in their service? Or in their API? Or in the underlying tech they are compatible with? All I see here is an open source system that you can manage and deploy yourself, with a 100% compatible API for a cloud service that handles that for you, should you decide to pay money to have that problem solved fo…

Good Open Source is something like PostgreSQL: It's completely free, you can host it yourself, or you can pay someone to host it, there are multiple competing service providers, most of them contribute to the project, and everyone has access to almost all of the source code. Anyone can start offering a compatible service with minimal investment. If you run into a problem, the source code for everything is public, and…

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