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Every aspiring writer should read terrible books (2022) [video]

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Re: Every aspiring writer should read terrible books (2022) [video]

#51

Also I recommend reading mediocre books. Especially first time authors. They're the best way to be on the other side of someone reading your first book. It's easy for anyone with a college education to avoid being truly terrible, but the middling eternity of mediocrity is a far harder to navigate out of.

I recently stopped reading such a book. It wasn't terrible and had no blatant flaws, but it also had nothing good either. It was all just meh. Music can also like this -- there is a big gap between being able to make something that isn't bad and making something that is actually good.

Re: Every aspiring writer should read terrible books (2022) [video]

#52

Also I recommend reading mediocre books. Especially first time authors. They're the best way to be on the other side of someone reading your first book. It's easy for anyone with a college education to avoid being truly terrible, but the middling eternity of mediocrity is a far harder to navigate out of.

For an infinite treasure trove of mediocrity (and the odd surprise), there's fanfiction archives like AO3 (https://archiveofourown.org/).

Re: Every aspiring writer should read terrible books (2022) [video]

#53
Don't most aspiring writers already do so, for some value of terrible? S.J. Perelman wrote a series of pieces, "Cloudland Revisited" about the books and movies that thrilled him when he was young but didn't stand up to later reading or viewing. Mark Twain's essay "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses" is a classic, though on the other hand you might want to have a look at D.H. Lawrence and Yvor Winters on Cooper before giving up entirely.

Re: Every aspiring writer should read terrible books (2022) [video]

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read The Dosadi Experiment from Frank Herbert. It is a scratch at best, it is terrible. Was recommended for me by some Dune fans.

What's wrong with the Dosadi Experiment? I remember enjoying reading it and finding the worldbuilding really interesting and the drama kept me reading. But I am a sucker for Frank Herbert so maybe I missed the flaws.

As I said: it is/feels like a sketch. The prose (often) reads like notes which should be rewritten, and filled with depth, and life. Also the story is bad, there is too much "deus ex machina". Also no characters one can relate to. Sounds like you read a totally different book than me :P.

If I had read it and the Dune without knowing their authors, I could not have told them they were written by the same person. Especially not that it was written after the Dune, where he has proved he can write well.

Re: Every aspiring writer should read terrible books (2022) [video]

#55
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

am interested, do you have a listing of terrible books?

Read The Dosadi Experiment from Frank Herbert. It is a scratch at best, it is terrible. Was recommended for me by some Dune fans.

See, Dosadi is one of my favorite books. It's not perfect by any means but a concentrate of Herbert tropes with interesting plot lines. Like most Herbert it's very much for a young adult / adolescent public (this not being a negative, it's pretty thin on many axes, focused on delivering the tropes in a enthusiastic way). The other Herbert 'destination, jesus' book cycle is harder to swallow though.

Re: Every aspiring writer should read terrible books (2022) [video]

#56
The best way to read terrible fiction is to join a critique group and read other amateurs. This is good because you can run across different levels of writers:

* People who have no business writing and have no idea what they're doing. These are not going to give you much, which is why you want to keep to groups that have some gatekeeping.

* Beginners who are not that talented but can develop skill. These people are good because you can see what it looks like to go from nothing to something, even if that something isn't great

* Untalented people who are workhorses and can do the job: these people are probably the most valuable "bad writers"

* Talented people who suck. These people are also amazing because you can see the power of skill as it develops

* Talented people who are very good. (These won't be in your group)

But really all this about "analyze why the book sucks" is a red herring. What is far more instructive is understanding why something that you don't like is appealing. If you can find what works in something you don't like, it's a lot more likely that you'll be able to understand that technique.

Best selling thrillers with bad dialog and paper characters? Great. That means you can focus on the pacing and plot and understand why the book works despite its obvious flaws. That's harder though because it isn't just stroking your own ego by saying "aw I could do that"

Re: Every aspiring writer should read terrible books (2022) [video]

#57
post #36

I kinda tried that with speaking and it blew back immensely and honestly only harmed me. Focusing on other people faults and trying to avoid them made me super aware of any theoretical imperfection in what I was doing without making me able to do something actually good. I was not improving at all, I was just increasingly scared to do anything, because more and more words/acts whatever resembled something bad someone…

I've had a similar thing trying to learn 'what not to do' from various management types I've had the displeasure to report to.

It's the longest possible path to learning how to do it right. There are an infinite number of wrong options, but precious few right ones. Just not stepping on the same land mines that someone else did step on doesn't mean you'll avoid the rest of the ones spread throughout the minefield. Much better to follow and learn the path of someone who knows the clear path.

The avoidance of specific bad can also equal bad. Just a different flavour.

Re: Every aspiring writer should read terrible books (2022) [video]

#58
One of the worst, and best reading experiences I get is anything long-form Frédéric Beigbeder. It's all over the place, always too much, showing off (both in style, dialogues, plots...), inconsistent, I find myself shaking my head or sighing most of the book, every damn time.

And then, the bastard manages to turn his stories around and do something often good, sometimes great of it. Not sure whether it's on purpose or he's just a short-story stretching too much... But if you read most of it, it's very very bad. But add the endings or the small moments of grace and suddenly it's great. Ugh.

Re: Every aspiring writer should read terrible books (2022) [video]

#60

I used to do standup comedy at the mostly amateur level. One woman who was always at the same shows was so unfunny, she could suck the life out of any room. I always tried to study her, thinking that if I could understand the essence of why she was so deeply unfunny, I could understand the secret to being funny. Sadly I could never figure it out. Her unfunniness was inscrutable.

Scott Adams has tried to describe it. He says that a good recipe for a joke is something that almost makes sense, but not quite. In other words, it has to be slightly absurd, but also slightly sensible, at the same time. A lot of Seinfeld jokes are along those lines.

There is a decent series by Rowan Atkinson on how to build something humorous. For many standup's they basically slowly show after show 'write' their stories. By testing what is good or bad in them and discarding what does not work and keeping what does. I have been watching Josh Wolf on youtube. Not sure he meant to do it. But he tells one joke a few times in successive videos. But each time the story is more funny the newer the video it is. You can tell he is revising the joke and finding where to spice it up.

Do not remember which stand up I heard it from. Many usually try their new material at 2am. If you can not get the people who are decently drunk to laugh it probably is not a good joke.

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