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Google was founded 25 years ago today

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Re: Google was founded 25 years ago today

#51
post #4

Google is a great example of "it's difficult to get someone to understand something if their paycheck depends on not understanding it". Even before google was founded and the founders discussed how they could monetize their search, they understood that paid ads create a conflict of interest: the point of search which is to to return the most relevant results, but the incentive in paid ads is to return the best paying…

Yes, there is a conflict, but it's not an unsolvable one. Google implemented a compromise - paid ads get displayed at the top, but they are marked as ads, so if you want the most relevant results, you scroll below the paid ads.

How those ads are presented has changed tremendously over time:

http://searchengineland.com/wp-content/seloads/2016/07/googl...>

60% of people cannot tell ads from organic search results:

https://www.smartinsights.com/paid-search-marketing-ppc/paid...>

Re: Google was founded 25 years ago today

#52

I'm curious if there's another company in history that became so pervasive so quickly? Not just in terms of size, but in impact/reach? I realise this question somewhat requires defining what Google is and it's current size and scale, which is quite the challenge. To me Google seems uniquely impactful, uniquely quickly, but I'd love to learn of other comparable companies from history.

It took 5 years until they stumbled on it, but I think ChatGPT is the fastest growing software in history.

Re: Google was founded 25 years ago today

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google may not be the worst but it's the biggest offender that reaches consumers. Their BS motto "Don't be evil", it makes me sick thinking of it now. They really made the world a much worse place.

I don't think they made the world a worse place. Can you show your working? Pros/cons for the existence of Google?

Well everyone is now followed constantly in their activity by their technology. They really made the world a panopticon dystopia.

Re: Google was founded 25 years ago today

#55
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To name a few (US centric ones) from guesses.... Ford, the British East India Company, Bethlehem Steel, Standard Oil, Bell, Apple, Boeing, and probably Amazon.

What makes the British East India Company US-centric?

Was founded in 1600 when the US was still part of England, so technically it holds up

Re: Google was founded 25 years ago today

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google may not be the worst but it's the biggest offender that reaches consumers. Their BS motto "Don't be evil", it makes me sick thinking of it now. They really made the world a much worse place.

While I understand what you mean, you should state at least one reason of why you think they are deeply evil people. To me, it's the story of how they systematically convince small firms that they want to do business, only to screw them over. Like Google Earth and Terra Vision, for example. Also, from the beginning, the proximity to the U.S. government was very noticeable, such as Keyhole or leasing military land. Ed…

For me it's the extreme surveillance they have introduced. Every website activity you do hits google. Smartphones log everything to google. Look on google maps, you can see exactly where you were every day in the last 10 years. This whole infrastructure should just not exist.

Yes I know you can opt out of some of it but they make it as hard as they can and many things like google analytics just can't be opted out of.

But I edited the deeply evil part as I also thought it was too harsh :) It was only there for a minute so I'm surprised you saw it. I do really believe they made the world a much worse place though. And yes if they hadn't someone else would have (like Zuckerberg). But that doesn't forgive it.

Re: Google was founded 25 years ago today

#57
post #4

Google is a great example of "it's difficult to get someone to understand something if their paycheck depends on not understanding it". Even before google was founded and the founders discussed how they could monetize their search, they understood that paid ads create a conflict of interest: the point of search which is to to return the most relevant results, but the incentive in paid ads is to return the best paying…

Some of the arguments aren't actually Olympian, although if you have a pre-existing bias against commerce or capitalism it may feel that way.

Most obvious example query of where PageRank totally fails: [flowers]. The correct top result here for 99.9% of searchers is a local flower shop or possibly a big flower delivery chain, but it's not the Wikipedia page for flowers. Likewise for [hotel near me] which an algorithm like PageRank will yield garbage for, [oppenheimer showtimes] and many other very popular query types.

Link based ranking just doesn't work for this sort of result. You need data that isn't on the web which means you then need a way to rank it. And how exactly do you plan to rank flower shops or movie theatres? You've got no data on which to do that. Even if they have a website at all (big if) people don't organically link to them. Attempts to gain ranking data via things like user reviews will fail, almost nobody real reviews local stores or cinemas so if you rely on that then either you'll be flooded with fake reviews, or companies will aggressively push people to write them, or both, and users hate both outcomes.

Ad auctions work much better. Users don't have to do anything directly, they just buy things from the best businesses as they see it, revenue flows to those businesses enabling them to bid higher for ads, so users see the most successful businesses as determined by the market as a whole, which is much harder to game than user reviews or PageRank.

When the original Google was built, it was built by students. Their first ever test query was the name of the guy who ran the university. Their edge was ranking publicly available web pages using link graphs, so they just weren't thinking about commercial queries at all and if that's the scope of your ambition then yeah it will look like ads are always a conflict of interest because the only model you can imagine is re-ranking organic informational results surreptitiously. Once they turned on their first search backend deal and got experience running a search engine with serious non-nerd user traffic for the first time, they realized there were tons of popular queries that their whole approach just sucked at and would always suck at. That's when they realized that in some cases "ads are information", as they put it.

That wasn't some sort of paycheque-induced intellectual blindness, if it was then Google would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. It was an actual fundamental realization about the nature of what people use search engines for.

Re: Google was founded 25 years ago today

#58
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now think of ChatGPT with this framework. Because it is paid to do, it will slowly try to convince you to buy something or even worse think of some politician or party differently. Scary stuff!

The nice thing with ChatGPT is they've established a viable funding model through paid subscriptions from day 1. On the other hand I predict that we will see the next ten years as a 'golden age' of steadily improving performance from ChatGPT, which will then plateau and 'enshittify'.

I don't think that will be enough to stop ads there, given that $2k+ smart TVs are blotted with permanent factory ads now.

Re: Google was founded 25 years ago today

#59

I'm curious if there's another company in history that became so pervasive so quickly? Not just in terms of size, but in impact/reach? I realise this question somewhat requires defining what Google is and it's current size and scale, which is quite the challenge. To me Google seems uniquely impactful, uniquely quickly, but I'd love to learn of other comparable companies from history.

It took 5 years until they stumbled on it, but I think ChatGPT is the fastest growing software in history.

Isn't it a bit too early to reason about it? We are not sure yet of the extent of its impact, there is a lot of hype around it recently. I'm not diminishing it, just saying we will be able to tell better once things settle down.

Re: Google was founded 25 years ago today

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there is a conflict, but it's not an unsolvable one. Google implemented a compromise - paid ads get displayed at the top, but they are marked as ads, so if you want the most relevant results, you scroll below the paid ads.

How those ads are presented has changed tremendously over time: http://searchengineland.com/wp-content/seloads/2016/07/googl... > 60% of people cannot tell ads from organic search results: https://www.smartinsights.com/paid-search-marketing-ppc/paid... >

Indeed. Google is far from being a saint. The idea I'm disputing is that the conflict between organic results and ads is impossible to solve. Google solved it many years ago, but is now regressing from it.
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