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How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

nippon.com

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Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#51

Post by UncleOxidant »

yoyoyo1122 wrote: post #36
UncleOxidant wrote: post #24

I see little emphasis in this article on real estate or rents. Sure, the issues they raise are contributors, but housing issues are foundational for many of the other problems they spend a lot of time on in the article. SK is more land-constrained than Japan. We're seeing family formation being negatively impacted in many areas of the world now due to high real estate prices. It's particularly acute in SK: https://ww…

It's in the middle of the article: > Another economic factor in the falling birthrate is the rising price of real estate and a resulting increase in unmarried or late-marrying people. The tradition in Korea is for men to prepare a family home before marrying, and the rising cost of housing in recent years has thereby triggered a decline in marriage rates. The Bank of Korea recently enacted emergency interest rate hik…

Ok, there's a bit of a mention there, but they don't seem to consider it the foundational issue. They mention education costs for several paragraphs - education costs would likely not be so high if real estate costs weren't so high.

Fewer desireable/high paying jobs gets several paragraphs, but again, this would be less of a problem if rents weren't so high - people would be able to live on the incomes available. High real estate prices are sucking the oxygen out of the rest of the economy.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#52

Post by Yhippa »

orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

Not sure where you are but it feels that this is exactly what it's like in America. I am not sure why nobody really cares and I suspect by the time people try to do something about it, it won't be too late, but it's going to take a Herculean effort to fix. Mindset and structural support.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#53

Post by jmyeet »

pc86 wrote: post #17
jmyeet wrote: post #4

[flagged]

And ah yes that global bastion of unfettered capitalism: China. All your "in the US" examples aren't capitalism, they're barely even free markets (and several aren't at all). High regulations, high barriers to entry, massive government subsidies for established players and massive government regulation preventing new players from entering the market. Capitalism has its downsides for sure, but pointing out education a…

> And ah yes that global bastion of unfettered capitalism: China.

Yes, China is a capitalist country. Putting "Communist" between "China" and "Party" (ie CCP) doesn't make it communist anymore than D standing for "Democratic" makes the DPRK (North Korea) a bastion of Democracy (or, for that matter, the German Democratic Republic aka GDR aka East Germany).

China has private companies, private property and an effective if not actual ban on labor organization (ie unions). It is in every way a capitalist country.

> All your "in the US" examples aren't capitalism, they're barely even free markets

"Free markets" are both a myth and orthogonal to capitalism. You mention both "free markets" and "too much regulation". That's neoliberalism (and, for the record, right wing).

Markets only function when there's a strong government to enforce them. Deregulation is merely a way to transfer wealth to the already wealthy, placing the costs for that on the government and the populace at large (eg any number of chemical spills, disasters, poisononing of water sources and so on).

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#54

Post by Retric »

yuppiepuppie wrote: post #9
jmyeet wrote: post #4

[flagged]

Do you have any data to support this? I always thought the issue was a mix of multiple things including social support, immigration policies, and various other complicated factors.

His basic premise is incorrect. Markets aren’t a significant part of all economic systems. Historically tribes didn’t operate under some universal system but webs of reciprocal gift giving was common. The best modern example might be Amish barn raising where members in good standing can receive a great deal of labor without direct compensation but to stay in good standing means providing the community with labor.

As to the decline in fertility that’s got many causes from access to birth control to pollution such as micro plastics directly reducing fertility. Negative impacts from capitalism play a role, but it isn’t so simple.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#55

Post by sho_hn »

orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

Women being expected to stop their own careers and stay home as a housewife used to be quite normal and even expected in South Korea, but this has been changing quite quickly. Nowadays, many women return to work after giving birth - even quite quickly in many cases, and not by choice. Because the couples can't afford the kids otherwise.

Anecdotally: Most of my wife's circle of friends are in their early 30s to mid-30s with first children (and we're on the way to fitting this description as well) and back to work, while their mothers stopped working once they had children.

This is to say, the previous system was bad, but the new reality is in some sense worse: No, women bearing the brunt of child-bearing alone is not great, but now both parents work very hard in family-hostile work conditions to even make ends meet. Both parents working full-time is very difficult if neither employer is flexible enough not to handle "I have to pick my kid up today" or "my kid is sick".

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#56

Post by WanderPanda »

orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

How did we end up at a point where creating life (literally) is a „not good enough reason“?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#57

Post by munk-a »

xwdv wrote: post #38
jamiek88 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those hormones could very well affect the desire to have kids too. Our brains and hormones are poorly understood.

If you must have a child hormones will have little to do with it. Reproduction can be made into a very routine robotic like activity, like going to the gym.

I'm not certain where this is really coming from. There are certainly ways to ignore people's consent and physically force pregnancy but this article is focused on whether people are choosing to have children or not. Would you mind clarifying your statement? It's very difficult to read what you're getting at.

Also, just technically speaking, we know there are hormones that absolutely can prevent you from being able to get pregnant - that's what the pill is.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#60

Post by ethbr1 »

There's a good note about the vast disparity between tiers of employers in South Korea (and will likely ring true in other countries too)

>> There is also a large wage gap between the primary labor market of major companies, like Samsung Electronics and Hyundai Motor Company, and the secondary labor market of small to medium-sized enterprises. This labor market polarization is progressing, and there is an even greater disparity in labor conditions than in Japan. [...] Employees of larger companies are much better off, with relatively higher salaries, better working conditions, and labor union protections. Those in SMEs, though, earn low wages, work under harsher conditions, and have no unions to protect their rights in negotiations with management, making these companies far less attractive to job seekers.

I'd pair that with a François Mitterrand-era (i.e. ~1980-95) French position that 'Progress means nothing unless it is shared by all.'

Chaebols are antithetical to democracy, as ultimately people will always act in their own best interests, and centralized individual economic power will rapidly corrupt democratic restraints placed on it.

The only antidote is decentralization of economic power (aka ensuring gains are widely accessible by most of the population).

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