Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#51

Post by snoman » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:37 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #23

fallingknife wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren't contractors like Uber drivers. They are corporations that are contractors of Amazon, and the drivers are employees of those companies. How would this possibly be a legal issue?

Because courts are supposed to see through flimsy fictions like this. These companies are not in an ordinary vendor/customer relationship: they are controlled completely by Amazon, they do not and cannot serve customers other than Amazon, their conditions and working hours are set by Amazon, etc. They are Amazon subsidiaries in all but name, and their treatment by the law should reflect that.

Tell that to every government contractor. Many companies (that I'd wager you wouldn't take issue with) exist due to the contracts they have with a single government organization.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#52

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:37 PM UTC

tekla wrote: post #41

jxf wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get what you pay for. UPS drivers are unionized, and Amazon's aren't.

Wait, UPS fucking sucks though. Amazon drivers make a attempt to hide packages, UPS tosses it 10 feet over the gate and mark it delivered in person.

> Amazon drivers make a attempt to hide packages, UPS tosses it 10 feet over the gate and mark it delivered in person.

The only driver I've actually caught throwing a fragile, expensive package was an Amazon driver, but I’m going to guess that the variation between different individual drivers and teams (and contracted firms, in Amazon’s case) is probably bigger than that between which big co they are delivering for when it comes to that kind of behavior.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#53

Post by josefresco » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:38 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #12

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

"lazily toss a package on the porch and walk away"

I tried to help an Amazon driver by taking the package from him at the edge of my driveway. He stopped me, told me he had to take a photo of it sitting on my property first. He was very serious about this. I doubt this behavior is from these contracted drivers unless the photo requirement is new and your experience is not.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#54

Post by veave » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:38 PM UTC

jtreminio wrote: post #28

bluedino wrote: post #12

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

> music blasting Far be it from me to say a driver can't listen to music while they are at work. > the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a month Good. Washing work vehicles so that they are always sparkling seems like a waste of resources. > Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile This is such a weird American fixation. Here, tak…

[flagged]

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#55

Post by coldtea » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:38 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #12

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

>Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile...

They aren't even putting on a little dance for each customer, to celebrate the wonderful minimum-wage soul-crushing git they got!

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#56

Post by ouid » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:39 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #12

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

[dead]

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#57

Post by lesuorac » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:39 PM UTC

singleshot_ wrote: post #24

polygamous_bat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a single product that kills people, you aren't legally allowed to put all your liabilities and none of your assets into another (non-shell, by your definition) company to get out of your liabilities. [0] What's happening here is quite similar. [0] See, for example, the J&J case, which was an even more generous form of the same.

Let's say I have $100 in assets and $10 in liabilities. The assets consist of Nike sneakers I'd like to sell; the liabilities consist of bags of trash that would cost me $30 to throw away at the dump. I'm lazy, so sell some shoes and I pay the trash man $35 to take the liabilities away. I have put all my liabilities in one company (the trash man) and left all my assets in my company. Now, I have a company with a few…

That's not what assets and liabilities are ...

Your bag of trash would still be listed on the Assets side but expenses on trash removal would be on the liabilities side.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#58

Post by kova12 » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:39 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #43

bluedino wrote: post #12

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

I wish this were not true, but on multiple deliveries I have had UPS falsify a delivery attempt and status. Amazon drivers have never done that. This has to be a systemic problem with UPS selling service level agreements they can't actually meet. There is no way that UPS's tracking system don't know this is happening.

Just another day UPS was supposed to deliver an item with signature. I needed the item. I was waiting for driver, but even if I wasn't, my whole family was at home. Looked outside, bam! UPS label "sorry we missed you" on the door.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#59

Post by coldtea » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:39 PM UTC

glimshe wrote: post #38

jtreminio wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> music blasting Far be it from me to say a driver can't listen to music while they are at work. > the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a month Good. Washing work vehicles so that they are always sparkling seems like a waste of resources. > Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile This is such a weird American fixation. Here, tak…

Gosh, whenever you find the world you want to live in, please let me know because I don't want to live there. I'll keep the smile and the clean trucks, thank you. A lot of good manners are "fake" and simply a social convention that people follow even if feeling miserable inside - "Good Morning", "Excuse me", "Thank you" etc. In a world filled with hostility, disease, death and danger, good manners and social conventi…

>Gosh, whenever you find the world you want to live in, please let me know because I don't want to live there.

Yes. Yay for hypocrisy and forced smiles for the customer-king.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#60

Post by coldtea » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:41 PM UTC

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #40

jtreminio wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> music blasting Far be it from me to say a driver can't listen to music while they are at work. > the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a month Good. Washing work vehicles so that they are always sparkling seems like a waste of resources. > Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile This is such a weird American fixation. Here, tak…

> This is such a weird American fixation. Here, take my money and hand me my burger and receipt, there's no need for a conversation or a fake smile. You don't care how my day is going, I don't really care about yours. Let's keep this transaction professional and solely focused on this exchange of money for burger. As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I…

>Is there something "weird" about that? No, absolutely not, and you can put down the superiority complex.

There is something weird though. Getting service from those minimum wage workers is not enough: people also demand their fake pleasure to serve and sympathy.