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TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

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Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#51

Post by lm28469 »

luplex wrote: post #38
Barrin92 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest concern for Germany is chip supply for the industry, especially the automotive sector, machinery, military and so on. 28/22 and 16/12 chips are still going to dominate in that sector for a long time.

that's if we don't expect Germany to become an AI powerhouse, where GPUs are useful. Apparently this does not seem to be a priority.

> Apparently this does not seem to be a priority.

It isn't for anyone besides HN/Twitter/&c. tech fanatics tbh

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#52

Post by [deleted] »

thiago_fm wrote: post #6

Great to see they coming to Germany. If Tesla could build a car factory here from scratch, I'm sure that they can build chips too. Curious why they've chosen Dresden though. Anybody knows how much the government is willing to invest? Missing some tangible figures.

[deleted]

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#53

Post by nordsieck »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #33
Vespasian wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't use that technology to produce mobile phones or GPUs. There are plenty of application were structure size, performance and/or power draw doesn't really matter. E.g. Automotive / Industrial applications

To be pedantic, I think it does matter there, but the cost / benefit tradeoff is in favor of the 10 year old processes. And it can vary too, mass produced / generic chips can be more cost efficient if they can make more of them on a single wafer.

> the cost / benefit tradeoff is in favor of the 10 year old processes.

I thought a big part of the reason why that's the case in general is because the old fabs that house those old processes have already been depreciated - customers basically only pay for maintenance and the of raw materials.

But that doesn't really apply to brand new fabs.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#54

Post by crote »

spdy wrote: post #29

Just out of curiosity how hard would it be to re-fit such a foundary to modern <5nm cpu fabs with ASML/Zeiss directly around the corner.

Literally impossible.

You don't re-fit a fab, you build it from scratch. There is very little technological overlap where it matters due to the shift to EUV. You'd essentially have to scrap >75% of the fab to fit in the new equipment.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#55

Post by DrBazza »

sirius87 wrote: post #3

Wonder if the Taiwanese govt at some point will step in and block these onshoring measures as a matter of national security. If countries are less reliant on manufacturing within Taiwan, its one less reason to stand up to Beijing's one China principle.

TSMC buy the fab equipment ASML based in the Netherlands.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#56

Post by nntwozz »

Just want to share these relevant videos from Asianometry:

How Semiconductors Ruined East Germany

https://youtu.be/cxrkC-pMH_s

Why Europe Lost Semiconductors

https://youtu.be/5ZdmS-EAbHo

Europe’s Lost Decades in Semiconductors

https://youtu.be/PpSdytrNEBg

It's great to get chip manufacturing back to Germany after all the struggles, even if it's not cutting edge.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#57

Post by oytis »

luplex wrote: post #38
Barrin92 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest concern for Germany is chip supply for the industry, especially the automotive sector, machinery, military and so on. 28/22 and 16/12 chips are still going to dominate in that sector for a long time.

that's if we don't expect Germany to become an AI powerhouse, where GPUs are useful. Apparently this does not seem to be a priority.

20 years forward - "The AI is uncharted territory for all of us."

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#58

Post by nordsieck »

justinclift wrote: post #48
crote wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the issue, isn't it? The Chips Act was marketed as an attempt to bring back "cutting-edge chips" to Europe, and to promote research and innovation. In the end it turns out to just be a huge government subsidy for a bog-standard fab which is at least a decade behind what TSMC is building in Taiwan. Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines, but pretty pointless when it com…

Bear in mind that this could be a "thin edge of the wedge" situation. Where they get this "older" node stuff up and running, and if it turns out to be going well then they can think about newer process/node sizes. It's not a dumb approach.

> Bear in mind that this could be a "thin edge of the wedge" situation. Where they get this "older" node stuff up and running, and if it turns out to be going well then they can think about newer process/node sizes.

I think that would be more credible if Global Foundries didn't already have "Fab 1" up and running that has a mature 22nm process.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#59

Post by Lionga »

AdamN wrote: post #14

Sort of incredible that Germany is getting decade old technology for this much investment.

Habeck and his kleptomanic friends and family will get a nice kickback later in life. Who cares if TSMC uses it for the things they do not want to have back home anymore as they are clearly getting to EOL.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#60

Post by arcticbull »

crote wrote: post #50
raverbashing wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the 'chip shortage' those past years was not for the cutting-edge stuff, but for automotive/embedded devices Not everything needs the 5nm cutting edge, and to be fair calling > 300mm (12-inch) wafers on TSMC’s 28/22 nanometer planar CMOS and 16/12 nanometer FinFET process technology, old is a bit unfair

3nm has already hit mass production. Considering this fab won't be ready for at least another two years, 2nm will have hit mass production already. 22nm dates back to 2012, and TSMC has been doing 14nm FinFET mass production since 2014. So yeah, a decade behind cutting-edge can indeed be called "old" when the entire point of the Chips Act was to catch up with Asia and become a center for innovation.

Considering the sheer magnitude of the cost of building out a bleeding edge fab, wouldn't it make sense to start with a somewhat older (but still incredibly useful) process node, develop domain expertise and then iterate? Going from 0 to 2nm is sure to yield little more than a boondoggle. Catching up is going to be a decade long process - if not longer. But you do have to start somewhere.

Plus, the only vendor of EUV lithography machines is likely 100% committed for the foreseeable future. DUV machines are much easier to get - you can go to ASML, Nikon, Canon and I assume a few others - while you find some space on the EUV order books.

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