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Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

wsj.com

51–60 of 184 posts

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#51
> Since 2016 San Francisco’s homeless budget has ballooned to $672 million from $224 million, yet the number of homeless in shelters has increased by a mere 736. That equates to $609,000 in higher annual spending for each additional person in shelter.

That's a case of BAD math if I've ever seen one. It's presented as if the goal of the homeless program is to corral homeless people into shelter and increase shelter occupancy (it's not.)

What are the number of people who has been rehomed? As a figure of speech, if a program rehomes a million people, and shelter occupancy goes up by a 736, is that still $609k a person?

I know WSJ writes from a biased place, but man, I couldn't read on after this sentence.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#52
post #34

> Mayor London Breed threw her hands up in response. “We can’t force people to accept or stay in shelters and we’re unable to prevent people from setting up an encampment in an area that was just cleaned. This is the situation we are in,” she tweeted Wednesday. > She’s right. San Francisco is under a federal injunction that bars officials from enforcing laws against camping or sleeping in public spaces as long as its…

>As San Francisco progressives are learning, government can build more shelter, but that doesn’t mean the homeless will use them. This is literally the opener to the article. The whole argument it is making is a complete mess.

> a federal injunction that bars officials from enforcing laws against camping or sleeping in public spaces as long as its homeless population exceeds available shelter beds.

If a place to sleep exists, you can demolish the encampments and force them the clear out. As the old saying goes, "You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here."

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#53
post #5

600k per year per person? With that amount of funding you may as well buy every homeless person a house

This would increase the supply of housing, lowering the value of real estate investments, and thus is not permitted. Spending on homelessness in places like California is essentially a corrupt form of taxation on insanely inflated housing prices, where the money gets funneled back through various “nonprofits” and “services” that line the pockets of politicians.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#54
post #30

I think it's important to note a couple of things. > The city of San Francisco released data last week showing that 55% of homeless individuals rejected shelter when offered it I think it's very important to understand why people turn down the beds. There are several reasons- * Shelters have very restricted hours, so if someone has a job that includes nights they likely can't use a shelter. A large number of homeless…

I think well meaning liberals want to believe that all of society’s problems can be solved without any form of coercion, and that is simply not the case. If someone is homeless and has a dog, and there is a shelter bed for them, you may just need to force them to give up their dog and move to the shelter (or else face arrest). There are overriding concerns greater than letting people keep their pets.

I recognize the solutions are more complex than just force people to give up their pets, but most of those solutions involve some application of coercive force.

Edit: I did not explicitly spell this out, but clearly if you take away the dog it should be put up for adoption, not executed on the street while the owner is forced to watch, for maximum cruelty. Some people seem to think I was advocating something like the latter.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strategy has in fact been tried in a few places and while it's not a cure-all, it seems to work pretty good.

Low income housing projects have been tried in the US too with mixed outcomes. My guess is that the Baseline social behavior and expectation is just lower in the US than in places like Taiwan or Singapore, where it is incredibly successful

Seeing comments like this get downvoted into oblivion when they're stating basic information without any obvious slant or other violations of the HN rules/norms is really bumming me out.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#56
post #5

600k per year per person? With that amount of funding you may as well buy every homeless person a house

This is one of those terrible, misleading statistics. Most of the "homelessness" budgets in large cities go towards preventing people from becoming unsheltered - i.e. on housing support and prevention.

Two-thirds of San Francisco's homelessness budget is spent on housing and prevention: https://hsh.sfgov.org/about/budget/overview-previous-budgets...

By definition, the best spent homelessness budget would be the one that resulted in zero people in shelters right?

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#57
This article makes a number of statements which run counter to empirical research I've seen on this topic, and doesn't cite anything to support these claims. My understanding is that the majority of CA homeless are in fact from CA, and few people are "professional vagrants". Some Ezra Klein episode I listened to last week brought up a number of highly detailed surveys from which I'm drawing these conclusions.

I see lots of statements like "many homeless prefer to live on the streets where they can freely use drugs", particularly in right-leaning media, but IMO these are kind of strawmen that elide a lot of the significant elements of the situation. Drug addicts don't just "prefer" to stay where they can use drugs, it is for all intents and purposes a biological necessity. Shelters which will stop people from using ex. opiates are going to be non-starters unless they an offer viable paths out of addiction, or embrace a harm reduction approach which gets pilloried left and right in the US.

The overall framing that "social services incentivize homelessness" also seems to run up against the fact that the largest driver of homelessness is obviously the rising price of housing. Presumably if social services (which in this article seems synonymous with money spent on shelters) were the cause of SF's homelessness problem you would see people using the shelters they moved there for. But as the article points out this isn't the case; engagement with the expensive services is far below the desired levels. If people simply wanted to live somewhere they don't have to pay rent and can use drugs freely there are a number of extremely accommodating rural areas for this lifestyle. It seems more likely to me that SFs housing market pushed a large number of people into penury, and some of them are coping with their extreme deprivation by using drugs. Not that SF has somehow become a national destination for homeless (who exist everywhere in the country, and every city seems to think that they are somehow a magnet for them).

I am sympathetic to people who prefer not to have encampments in the public space, but I think we need to be clear-eyed about the causes and potential solutions. Simply "cracking down" with aggressively enforced urban camping bans hasn't worked in pretty much any city its been tried in (see Denver, where the cops have spent the better part of two years pushing the city's 4K homeless from block to block, with overall levels only increasing). Presumably it would be better to (a) stop the flow of people into homelessness with a stronger social safety net and a better housing supply and (b) increase the flow out of homelessness with better rehabilitation programs.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#58
post #30

I think it's important to note a couple of things. > The city of San Francisco released data last week showing that 55% of homeless individuals rejected shelter when offered it I think it's very important to understand why people turn down the beds. There are several reasons- * Shelters have very restricted hours, so if someone has a job that includes nights they likely can't use a shelter. A large number of homeless…

1) your two points are at odds: some proportion of the homeless refuse shelter under any circumstances. What, then, is the point of wildly overprovisioning shelter beds, when ones are going unused today?

2) So, the idea is that until the government guarantees a free rental unit that accepts pets and provides a storage unit for all of a homeless person's stuff, it should be prevented from enforcing any laws about camping in public spaces and preventing the public from using those spaces?

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#59
post #22

it was a mecca before this. 2014 was about 12-18 months into the tent encampment era (especially around the mission and Division) of homelessness though it was rapidly expanding in numbers and neighborhoods then and after that. Before that, 2012 and before, homelessness in the city tended to look more like people sleeping in doorways.

Related to this, here was an article in 2014 related to this:

https://missionlocal.org/2014/09/homeless-encampments-here-t...

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#60
post #2

https://archive.ph/eDCri

Unrelated to the topic at hand, but in the last couple of days I've become completely unable to use the Archive. Infinite loops of CAPTCHAs and 429 Too Many Requests in console :( Really sad, it feels like I'm losing access to some really core, basic internet infrastructure.

https://www.removepaywall.com/
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