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Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#51

Post by bdamm »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #35
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

This take is a bit weird to me. It’s like saying because other companies aren’t lying that Tesla should be excused from lying. It sounds like Tesla has been displaying this number in car regardless of the accuracy; and in my opinion leaned into lying. From the article: > The complaint cited testing that found three Tesla models fell short of their advertised ranges by an average of 26 percent. In addition to alleging…

Right, and the one that is accurate is what you get when you put in a destination. The car can't tell you how far you can go if it doesn't know where you are going, because of all these factors (altitude gain, direction of wind, speed limits on the various roads involved, etc) which have a very significant effect on the range.

The idea of a single value for "range" is fundamentally flawed. Is it Tesla's fault that people don't understand basic physics?

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#52

Post by TheRealSteel »

jackmott42 wrote: post #23
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

Tesla display that but also displays highly accurate estimates of any trip you plan. To me the real party at fault with EV range in the USA is the EPA, which combines city and highway range in a single number, which inflates the highway number. Every EV that is sold advertises this inflated EPA number. Nobody cares about city range, just publish highway range, or both, like we do with gas cars.

How can you say nobody cares about city range? That's all I care about.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#53

Post by constantcrying »

therouwboat wrote: post #44
constantcrying wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>lie to customers Is that alleged? I saw only the support telling customers that this is expected. "There is nothing wrong with your car, don't bother comming. It is expected that sometimes your car gets galf the range." is not a lie at all. It seems absolutely truthful and in fact the total opposite of exaggerating the range of the car. >We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla…

>The algorithm claim seems extremely weak. Unless you can get some actual developer to testify that he was explicitly ordered to build the algorithm to report a range which he knew was impossible to reach or something similar, this seems practically irrelevant. Of course he was ordered to build it that way, it's not like some worker is just going to decide by himself.

>Of course he was ordered to build it that way

Zero evidence for that.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#54

Post by Delphiki »

MBCook wrote: post #6
constantcrying wrote: post #3

Seems like a pretty weak claim to be honest. I think it is pretty obvious that maximum range refers to maxium range under ideal conditions and that using more eletronics in the car reduces the range. Porsche isn't lying about their max speed either, just because you can't reach it with 300kg of load and bad weather.

Basically every other EV tries to give a realistic range based on the temperate and your driving habits. Teslas appear to always show the EPA range at full and it sounds like they stay very optimistic for quite a long time, giving drivers a very unrealistic picture. That’s lying to the customer. They’re not trying to be useful but to look good. And in every EV range comparison I’ve ever seen, teslas are the ones that…

> in every EV range comparison I’ve ever seen, teslas are the ones that can’t meet their claimed range by a fair margin. Other brands are almost always close to accurate or in some cases do noticeably better than claimed.

What's your source? Cause I don't think that's true... [1][2]

[1]https://youtu.be/fvwOa7TCd1E?t=2233

[2]https://youtu.be/xg6-Vc9CSwk?t=2589

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#55

Post by TheRealSteel »

yreg wrote: post #37
heattemp99 wrote: post #33

The biggest fail IMO is that if you use this range constantly, you'll basically degrade the battery heavily. These top ranges require a full 100% charge (bad for the battery) and a pretty low level of discharge (bad for any weak cells in the pack). So yes in a special case you have that range. Using it often will cause faster battery pack degradation. My Chevy Volt has a 15kwh pack, and only lets you use 10kwh. The b…

Full 100% charge is good for the LFP batteries which have been standard in Model 3 and Model Y since 2021. Indeed, Tesla recommends to charge to 100% at least once per week. https://insideevs.com/news/557527/tesla-model3-lfp-charging-... edit: read response below

As far as I know this isn't true, LFP batteries degrade more when charged to 100% than if they're charged to less, but the remaining charge can't be estimated accurately unless you do:

https://www.torquenews.com/15475/battery-charging-behavior-t...

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/yh5ts5/m3_lfp_...

(They still degrade much less than the other kind of battery Tesla uses, however).

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#56

Post by yurishimo »

CameronNemo wrote: post #42
yurishimo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people need to drive slow? Sometimes you gotta get somewhere. If they are willing to pay the premium to driver faster and follow the law while doing so, what’s the harm?

They are not willing to pay the premium, though. Tell me when highways, bridges, and streets are not paid by gas taxes -- you won't. Tell me when I can trade money for reliably sequestered CO2 -- you can't. edit: I didn't downvote them btw

So you downvote me because you are refusing to engage in the “we live in a society” meme?

We’ve decided collectively how to fund infrastructure and engage in climate action as a society. If you don’t like it, feel free to lobby your neighbors and representatives to change the law.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#57

Post by lsaferite »

sdfignaionio wrote: post #46
jackmott42 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla display that but also displays highly accurate estimates of any trip you plan. To me the real party at fault with EV range in the USA is the EPA, which combines city and highway range in a single number, which inflates the highway number. Every EV that is sold advertises this inflated EPA number. Nobody cares about city range, just publish highway range, or both, like we do with gas cars.

There are two important things you're missing: 1. Tesla's estimates are not "highly accurate". They are alleged to use a deliberately optimistic estimate when the battery is near full, then gradually switch to a more realistic estimate as the battery drains. In particular they are alleged to incorrectly account for the weather. This means the car will always display nearly the advertised number at full charge (and on…

I know we are talking about EVs here, but my ICE has an estimated range display and _it_ isn't super accurate _and_ it doesn't take potential weather (or other factors like elevation) into account either. Why would you expect it to factor in _potential_ weather when giving a range estimate?

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#58

Post by bdamm »

darth_avocado wrote: post #40
constantcrying wrote: post #3

Seems like a pretty weak claim to be honest. I think it is pretty obvious that maximum range refers to maxium range under ideal conditions and that using more eletronics in the car reduces the range. Porsche isn't lying about their max speed either, just because you can't reach it with 300kg of load and bad weather.

I think it’s a disingenuous to use this argument. Even if you drive at 25mph on a flat road on a day with moderate temperatures and no wind, Tesla’s range drops quite a lot more than a mile for every mile driven. Like yeah, if you’re using air conditioning and driving at 70 mph, it makes sense your range will drop more. The problem is that they’re pretending under ideal conditions, you can achieve that max range, but…

You're talking about hypermiling, and that isn't the condition under which the Tesla EPA ratings are achieved. I have done hypermiling from time to time (and Tesla's navigation will request you do it if your range runs low) and you can indeed get better results than the EPA rated figure.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#59

Post by m463 »

heattemp99 wrote: post #33

The biggest fail IMO is that if you use this range constantly, you'll basically degrade the battery heavily. These top ranges require a full 100% charge (bad for the battery) and a pretty low level of discharge (bad for any weak cells in the pack). So yes in a special case you have that range. Using it often will cause faster battery pack degradation. My Chevy Volt has a 15kwh pack, and only lets you use 10kwh. The b…

I think you could use the range and if the battery fails within the 8 year warranty they should give you a new one.

Many consumer goods work like this. Lots of cheap power tools are sold with the understanding that the consumer will use them a few times and no claims will be made during the warranty period. Many (most?) gym memberships are sold with the understanding that many clients will come a few times, then never return.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#60

Post by arrozconcosas »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #35
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

This take is a bit weird to me. It’s like saying because other companies aren’t lying that Tesla should be excused from lying. It sounds like Tesla has been displaying this number in car regardless of the accuracy; and in my opinion leaned into lying. From the article: > The complaint cited testing that found three Tesla models fell short of their advertised ranges by an average of 26 percent. In addition to alleging…

The government agency is at fault here not Tesla. They need to come up with a better test.
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