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Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

sendthemyourmoney.com

51–60 of 135 posts

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#51
post #37

> They've made it very clear that they consider digital copies of physical property to be just as valuable as the original. What does this even mean? It appears the message of this campaign is that digital music is devoid of monetary value.

Copying music was once an industry that required massive capital for both the recording and distribution, so these had monetary value as services to the artist and consumer.

Now the artist can own their recording equipment outright and no longer has to rent it and the distribution channel, while not free, is so cheap it is given away in order to help sell coffee.

So, digital music is not only nearly devoid of monetary value as it is no longer an industry in and of itself, but from a commercial perspective is the advert for the live show and so can even be viewed as a marketing cost.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if Joe Blow watches Avatar and then comes to the realization that he's wasted 2 hours of his life? How shall that be recovered?

Should it be recovered? If you buy a product that you wish you didn't buy, wouldn't you normally return it? I see no reason for businesses to get money by basically tricking their customers into buying something they later find out it's not what they expected.

Now we're just getting silly.

A huge portion of our economy is based on buying services and not physical goods. If every service was exactly as described and advertised we wouldn't need Consumer Reports, Yelp, or Epinions. We'd live in utopia. And yet, here we are.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#54
post #39

> They've made it very clear that they consider digital copies of physical property to be just as valuable as the original. Wow, talk about missing the point. Digital copies of movies and music are just as valuable as the originals, particularly as CDs and DVDs become obsolete. Copies of dollar bills are somewhat less so - you can't buy stuff with them. If you actually want to argue against the movie and music indust…

First of all, I'm sure the actual original copy actually has more value for collectors and the like. The real argument is that they are just copies and literally cost the studios nothing--that is, the studios do not have to spend any money on your downloading the film from a third party. So, by extension, you pay them in a way that does not cost you anything, by using a copy of money. The only value a copy--distinct…

A large number of people are still willing to pay for music. How many people would be willing to pay you for a photocopy of a $1 bill?

I understand the argument that you and this site are trying to make, but it's fundamentally flawed. Ultimately you're going to have to convince both government and the music industry of whatever solution you're proposing.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#55
post #45

> They've made it very clear that they consider digital copies of physical property to be just as valuable as the original. Wow, talk about missing the point. Digital copies of movies and music are just as valuable as the originals, particularly as CDs and DVDs become obsolete. Copies of dollar bills are somewhat less so - you can't buy stuff with them. If you actually want to argue against the movie and music indust…

I think you're the one missing the point. This is a parody of the very notion of intellectual property, which equates the "value" of a consensually-distributed stream of bits to the "value" of physical property that happens to contain the same stream of bits.

Physical property has nothing to do with it. If I buy an mp3 and distribute copies of it, how is that different to ripping it from a CD?

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#56
post #48
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and you will need a copy machine that actually copies bills. Some machines use software to block it. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation )

Help yourself to a dollar: http://imgur.com/uFJht

You sure you can afford this? I wouldn't want to impose.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#57
post #26
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way a defective 3d printed vehicle would be returned, proof of destroying what you made for a full refund. In the case of avatar... You can't unsee the movie, maybe an equivalent dose of pain to counteract the plesure? Maybe if you can prove you only derived a few units of pleasure from it, you are compensated the delta between how much was claimed and how much was delivered. A startup where you sell movies…

> maybe an equivalent dose of pain to counteract the plesure? So, they would have to watch it again?

I think Hollywood calls this a "sequel".

E.g. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093857/

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#58
This is just awful.

"They've made it very clear that they consider digital copies of physical property to be just as valuable as the original."

What is an "original"? With food I understand. smell:food::sound:coins. Or even smell:food::picture:money. So in this case, picture:money::torrent:??

What is the 'original'? The physical medium containing the footage original? A live performance?

If you were to pay for the movie - just as one might pay to eat actual food - what would you pay for? If not a copy of the movie's bits on your hard drive, what? Or do you think nothing at all?

The original article was saying that there used to be a scarcity in the act of watching a movie: you had to go to the theater. Now that scarcity, the problem of "how shall I procure this entertainment" has been solved.

But movies themselves still cost money. Movies themselves are scarce! We can watch movies as easily as we breathe air. But we cannot make movies as easily.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#59
post #10

Very creative and thought provoking, but wrong. A DVD version of avatar sells for say $20 and Riaa gets some percentage of that. Joe blow downloads avatar for free from google or some other website, ptp or sneakernet. Joe blow sends the riaa some percentage of $20 in photocopied money. That does not provide the same utility for riaa as the avatar.mp4 did for Joe blow. Whether or not Joe blow's download of avatar for…

Agreed. Imho this argument that copying is not stealing does a real disservice to the cause. No, you're not stealing a thing when you copy it, but you are stealing the utility that it confers, be it entertainment, knowledge or whatever, that you would otherwise have had to pay for. You're taking value and not compensating for it, aka theft. This is so transparent and obvious a flaw in the assertion that no trained la…

This particular trained lawyer wishes that we could never talk about whether copyright infringement is stealing, ever again. It's 100% legally irrelevant.

There are laws against stealing physical property. Copyright infringement doesn't violate them. There are laws against copyright infringement. Copyright infringement does violate them. The question of whether "stealing" is good shorthand for "copyright infringement" is a total waste of time. The real point is whether the copyright infringement laws are good laws.

In fact, let's get technical about it. Here's what's going on under the hood. Both areas of law relate to the idea of "alienable rights" -- stuff that only you are entitled to do, that you can sell or give away so other people can do.[1] For example, I "own" my bike. That means I have a bunch of rights over it. I can exclude anyone else from riding it. I can destroy it. I can sell the right to destroy it. I can sell the right to ride it on alternate Thursdays. I can sell the right to sell the right to ride it. Or I can sell the whole bike so someone else gets the whole bundle of rights. Lawyers, with a flair for the dramatic, analogize this set of rights over the bike to a "bundle of sticks" that can be separated or kept together.

Example 2: I rent an apartment. My landlord "owns" the property, but she's sold me the temporary, exclusive right to decide who can come on it and who can't. I can let neighborhood kids run through the backyard or tell them to take off. But I can't charge other people to sleep here -- she hasn't sold me that right.

Example 3: I "own" this comment. I can sell or give away the right to display it at ycombinator.com (in fact, that's what I'll effectively do when I click "reply"). I can sell the right to print it worldwide in any medium. I can sell the right to make a movie adaptation. I can sell the right to distribute it without my name attached -- or with your name attached. Or I can sell the whole thing and let someone else dispose of all these rights ...

So when we talk stealing and infringement, we're talking about violations of someone else's alienable rights. When you take away all of my alienable rights over my bike, that's called stealing. When you take them temporarily, it's "wrongful appropriation." When you take my right to exclude people from my property, that's called trespass. When you take my right to decide who rents my bike, it's theft of services. When you take my right to decide where this comment gets published, it's copyright infringement.

So at this point the copyright debate becomes a little clearer, right? The question is which alienable rights should attach to instantiated ideas (intellectual property), and how long should each right last, and what should be the consequences for infringing each right, and can we give artists something that works as well for them as these exclusive alienable rights, and so on. When people say "copyright infringement is stealing," it's intuitive, emotional shorthand for "the same arguments that justify the rights attached to physical property also justify the rights attached to instantiated ideas." When people say "nuh uh," that's shorthand for "nuh uh."

So the answer to whether copyright infringement is stealing is that there's a bunch of reasons we attach various rights to physical property, and there's a bunch of reasons we attach various rights to IP, and some rights and reasons apply to both and some reasons apply to just one or the other. Which is to say, it's a pointless question. The analogy is kind of right and kind of wrong, in a totally unhelpful way. The useful question is whether the particular rights bundled into "copyright" are the best way to do the things we're trying to do.

Seriously, when I think about it, I can't believe how many hours have been spent on the internet debating this pointless question. The next time you're tempted to start, just link to this comment instead. Then take that time to make something. Anything you like. Even a LOLcat or a drawing in MSPaint. Put it in the public domain. It'll be better for the world.

--

[1] You know how the Declaration of Independence says we're all endowed with "inalienable" rights? That's inalienable as in the opposite of the "alienable" rights I discussed above. That's why you can't sell yourself into slavery -- your right to liberty isn't alienable.

The More You Know.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#60
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Where I'm from, I regularly pay a bill for my water/sewer usage, thus tap water is certainly worth more than $0.00. The funds collected are used to fund the operation of the water utility, not taxes. 2. I'm sorry, but I don't understand how copyright is an outgrowth of taxes. One is a mechanism to generate funds for the government, the other is a means to protect intellectual property. Could you clarify your point…

Copyright is a form of rent seeking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking It's not a tax per se, but a cost imposed by the state solely for the benefit of a private party. The original US copyright act allowed for 14 years of protection. Of course, a portion of the rent-seeking copyright cartel's revenue goes to lobby the congress for ever longer copyright terms, making the original intent of the constitution m…

>a cost imposed by the state solely for the benefit of a private party //

Copyright is a [not so] limited-time state sponsored monopoly.

It is not rent-seeking.

Whilst copyright in the jurisdictions I know about is pretty much broken by over-extended time periods given to the monopoly rights holder at the [highly undemocratic IMO] detriment to the public domain it is nonetheless still given for creating new works. By definition copyright is granted on works that didn't exist before, new intellectual property has been created - how can this then be rent-seeking.

To recapitulate, using the Wikipedia definition thus (my emphasis):

"Rent [...] is obtained when a third party deprives one party of access to otherwise accessible transaction opportunities, making nominally "consensual" transactions a rent-collection opportunity for the third party."

Works would not be otherwise accessible if they were not first created.

I'll probably go along with a charge that extension of copyright terms (already granted) to the detriment of the public domain is rent-seeking behaviour however.

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