x86 is dead, long live x86 • Hacker News Board

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#51

Post by oblak » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:55 PM UTC

edgyquant wrote: post #11

jimmaswell wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what? I would never buy an Apple laptop and no one I know has one either. The Windows "gaming laptop" I got a few years ago for game dev is perfectly adequate and has features missing from Macbooks: - ethernet port - hdmi port - multiple usb A and C ports - solid keyboard Same for my work laptop, again Windows/x86 and no one I know with a work laptop is supplied a Mac either.

We live in different worlds. All engineers I know have Macs and the ones that don’t have Linux. The one guy on my team who uses windows is a constant problem as he has to find work arounds for every process we have/service we build.

1. Build a pipeline with macOS in mind (because "All engineers I know have Macs")

2. Complain when the macOS-oriented process doesn't work for everyone.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#52

Post by mpweiher » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:56 PM UTC

cardanome wrote: post #23

retskrad wrote: post #4

x86 lives on desktop now. Windows, Intel, AMD and Nvidia have more or less thrown in the white flag and given the laptop market to Apple.

Apple products are only dominant the US. For the rest of the world they are more of an luxury item. That said, I am not terribly interested in ARM-based laptops for now. Yes, they may be more energy efficient and all but that hardly matters to me compared to just having the same x86 architecture I run on my desktop and servers. That sweet binary-compatibility means less headache. People underestimate the advantages t…

> ... just having the same x86 architecture I run on my desktop and servers.

Yep! For me, it's the same ARM64 architecture I run on my desktop and servers[1]. :-)

Hetzner's offering is very competitive, cheaper than their already rock-bottom x86 offerings. Then there's AWS Graviton, Oracle with their free tier (not sure how expensive that gets if you actually have to load it) and both Azure and Google also have ARM offerings.

[1] https://blog.metaobject.com/2023/05/setting-up-hetzner-arm-i...

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#53

Post by mobilio » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:58 PM UTC

distcs wrote: post #39

mobilio wrote: post #3

I've recently switch from VPS with Intel to physical server with latest AMD Zen4. Single thread performance blow my mind with scores like 4000. Without change a single line of code = performance was 10x than before.

> Single thread performance blow my mind with scores like 4000. What exactly is this number 4000? What does it mean? Where can I read more about this scoring system?

I'm checking PassMark:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+5+7600&id...

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#54

Post by mobilio » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:58 PM UTC

jsheard wrote: post #15

mobilio wrote: post #3

I've recently switch from VPS with Intel to physical server with latest AMD Zen4. Single thread performance blow my mind with scores like 4000. Without change a single line of code = performance was 10x than before.

4000 in what benchmark? I don't doubt that bare-metal Zen4 is fast but that number doesn't mean anything by itself.

I'm checking PassMark:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+5+7600&id...

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#55

Post by sneed_chucker » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 4:58 PM UTC

slfnflctd wrote: post #32

When I think about how long chips like the 6502 have still been in active use (almost 50 years now), it is hard to conceive of a world where there isn't a significant presence of x86 activity for the rest of my life. The majority of 'the market' may go elsewhere, but for a gazillion reasons, x86 will not be disappearing for quite a while. At this point it would honestly surprise me if we didn't at least have high qua…

Are 6502 chips still used? What's the application?

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#56

Post by User23 » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

_a_a_a_ wrote: post #43

riffic wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A thing's future longevity can sometimes be predicted by how long it's already been around.

But not humans, regrettably.

99 year old humans are considerably more likely to live to be 100 than 50 year old humans.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#57

Post by agloe_dreams » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

ngcc_hk wrote: post #47

agloe_dreams wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A key element to Apple and ARM and why you are right outside the us is this: 1. Apple's chips are so far beyond everything else that it makes obvious sense for Apple only. Snapdragon is at least 30% slower single core while having worse Performance per watt. 2. Apple wasn't playing fair with their translation layer. The Rosetta layer cheats a little because apple also made the chip. The secret sauce is that the M1 ha…

Unfair … strange use of phrase. Innovative would be a better use of word as nothing prepare others to do the same … it is good to have a vendor play differently not follow the slow and dominated by arm player c. The conclusion is on the ball but only current. M1 has been a bit old now and if other arm vendor and the two major architecture (ibm power for mainframe … cannot be counted) it is at least x86-32 plus x86-64…

The wording of unfair is more of a fun use of the word. Because Apple vertically integrated the whole product and software supply chain, they are singularly able to do things others cannot. In that context, if one is playing "fair" on the terms of everyone else when they could do more...they are losing.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#58

Post by innocenat » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

selectodude wrote: post #20

redwall_hp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I work in an entire office of engineers with only Macs (mostly ARM ones now) and I only have a Mac at home, besides a very old ThinkPad running Ubuntu. (Aside from FFXIV on MacOS, I've moved any gaming to PS5 and Switch.) I haven't actively used Windows since 2008. It's such an obnoxious OS to use, and I have never seen a Windows laptop with quality in the same zip code as a Mac. There's always a terrible touch…

I just received a brand new Thinkpad from work. I don't even mind Windows but holy crap is that thing an absolute chore to use. I don't understand how this is still an issue while Apple has been putting out what amounts to the perfect laptop for like 10+ years now.

On the other hand, I moved from MacBook to ThinkPad and holy crap it's just so much easier to use.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#59

Post by aidenn0 » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

jsheard wrote: post #15

mobilio wrote: post #3

I've recently switch from VPS with Intel to physical server with latest AMD Zen4. Single thread performance blow my mind with scores like 4000. Without change a single line of code = performance was 10x than before.

4000 in what benchmark? I don't doubt that bare-metal Zen4 is fast but that number doesn't mean anything by itself.

Yeah, I read that and just saw Vegeta saying "it's over 8000"

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#60

Post by Gordonjcp » Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

slfnflctd wrote: post #32

When I think about how long chips like the 6502 have still been in active use (almost 50 years now), it is hard to conceive of a world where there isn't a significant presence of x86 activity for the rest of my life. The majority of 'the market' may go elsewhere, but for a gazillion reasons, x86 will not be disappearing for quite a while. At this point it would honestly surprise me if we didn't at least have high qua…

Stuff like 6502s and Z80s are a bit like little single-cylinder engines - the world will move onto all sorts of interesting new places, but something somewhere will always be powered by a wee Briggs & Stratton that starts first pull of the string, and we'll be glad of it.