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Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

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Re: Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously intelligence tops out at the high end of a sigmoid curve - there's only so much matter and energy in the universe to convert to computronium - but that's no reason to suspect any value smaller than that as the limit. It must eventually level off, but the point at which it levels off may be hundreds of billions of times more intelligent than a human. So the fact that intelligence is limited, doesn't in any w…

We also have no reason to suspect that it is possible. The wall that silicon has smashed into should give us (well, not me, really the Singularitists) pause.

We also have no reason to suspect that it is possible.

This is simply not true.

First of all, we already know that intelligent algorithms are possible - we're living examples of that (once you put aside the philosophical objections that assume that something non-algorithmic is happening in our brains). We also have very good reason to think that we're rather poor implementations of intelligence, given the fact that evolution tends to suck efficiency and design-wise, more or less.

Second, we know that we have a reasonable shot at hitting a point where we have enough computer power to actually simulate a full human brain. Now, you may argue that Moore's law will not take us there, exponential vs. sigmoid, etc., but the point is, the probability is distinctly non-zero that within 20/50/100 years you or your children will be able to purchase enough computing power to simulate a brain. I'd probably argue that over a 100 year window, we're at least looking at 50/50 odds (and IMO, that 50% where we don't have such power available mostly involves Big Trouble, world wide nuclear war or something like that).

Of course, without software, such hardware is useless. I'm fully in agreement, this is the biggest pinch point, and I think the most uncertainty comes into the picture here - we don't currently have the technology to scan a brain in detail, we don't currently know the way the neocortex wires up its functionality, so on and so forth. Maybe we'll have the tech to do direct scans by then, maybe we won't; I'd say there's at least a small chance, maybe a few percent, going up over time. Over a hundred year window, if we already have the computing power to simulate a brain, I'd say there's a reasonable shot that we could scan one to simulate, but nowhere near 100%.

There's also the possibility that someone comes up with a better algorithm than the one our brain clumsily implemented, either more compact, more efficient, or in some other way more accessible to us. I'd give at least a small chance of that, too (which adds to the brain-scan chance above), given that we already have a vague sense what such algorithms might look like (see the literature on approximating AIXI, for instance).

Once we've got something that simulates a human brain in software, it's a fairly simple matter to engineer ways to improve on the design, either by increasing speed, parallelism, connectivity, etc. There are hundreds of variables to play with there that we can't safely mess around with in our own brains, and it's overwhelmingly likely that some combination of those can at least result in something that beats our intelligence by some not insignificant factor.

So we've got some non-zero chance (it might be small, but my best estimate still probably puts it in the single digit percentage range, using rather pessimistic assumptions) of building something that's maybe 2x as intelligent as we are over the next 100 years. From there, all bets are off - it might be able to further improve on its own design, it might not, but it also might be able to design something better, or create the technological improvements necessary to speed up Moore's law, etc. There's again at least a reasonable chance that it will continue to improve things, and at least set off an "intelligence explosion" that takes it to 10, 100, 1000x our own intelligence, even if it levels off after that. As best as I can figure, even a 10x intelligence explosion still brings us so far beyond what we know that it might as well be the full Singularity as Kurzweil described it.

Are you really saying that you think the probability at any step along the way here is so small that there's no reason to think it's possible? I'd be curious to hear what percentages you would assign to the various possibilities, if so.

Re: Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

#52

I found it quite annoying that the FOOM/MOOF acronyms didn't seem to be explained anywhere on the page...

http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/FOOM

It appears to be a word made up to explain a rapid growth in AI due to the fact that such an intelligence can rewrite its source code and modify its hardware, whereas humans are relatively stuck with the limitations of our wetware. A take on the onomatapoetic word BOOM I think as it represents an explosion of intelligence/capability. By contrast, MOOF would be subverting the reward mechanism that underlies the FOOM growth, thereby resulting in a whimper (MOOF) rather than an explosion (FOOM).

Re: Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

#53

What's the purpose of this 'pleasure' construct in the AI's mind? If it's able to calculate the value of a utility function in order to set the 'pleasure' variable, and it bases its actions on the value of this 'pleasure' variable, why not just cut out the middle man and have it base its actions directly on the result of the utility function? The variable functionally buys you nothing, but introduces this problem tha…

it knows that if it modifies its utility function it is liable to collect less ore, which is something it doesn't want. Why would it want or not want anything, if it doesn't have a pleasure construct (which might also be called a motivation construct, since an AI might not be capable of the same subjective experience of pleasure that we are)? I think it's a question of program design whether there's a utility functio…

> Why would it want or not want anything, if it doesn't have a pleasure construct

Why does a calculator want to add, without a pleasure construct? If it doesn't enjoy giving the right answer to 2 + 3, what motivates it to choose 5? The answer is it doesn't necessarily 'want' to do it, it just does it. That was how it was programmed.

You program the AI to choose the plan that maximises the expected utility function. Someone looking at that AI in action might suppose it 'wants' to maximise the utility function. Whether they'd be right to suppose that is a question for the philosophers, but the point is, the thing doesn't just sit there apathetically just because it has no 'motivation construct'. You could say that the AI follows its programming, but it would be more accurate to say the AI is its programming.

Re: Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

#54

The fact the author can think of one particular way to design an AI that would result it in falling over and dying once it figures out how to modify itself does not imply that all possible intelligences would behave similarly. Somehow, humans are able to "want to be happy" while still refusing to take heroin or pain killers, and we have no reason yet to believe that AI is fundamentally unable to grasp this distinctio…

The fact the author can think of one particular way to design an AI that would result it in falling over and dying once it figures out how to modify itself does not imply that all possible intelligences would behave similarly.

I was actually surprised a bit to see that the author was somewhat familiar with Eliezer Yudkowsky's writings on the topic (he cited http://lesswrong.com/lw/wp/what_i_think_if_not_why/), because the line of thought doesn't seem to incorporate a real understanding of what he's said on the topic (which, to be fair, is a huge body of work...).

Most of EY's "Friendly AI" worries are rooted in this idea that when considering the entire universe of algorithms that could be described as intelligent or self improving, we need to be exceptionally careful not to assume that more than a negligible percentage of them share anything in common with human intelligence, because for the most part, they won't, unless they're carefully and explicitly designed to do so.

Here, the author assumes that the AI is simply trying to optimize some internal measure of happiness, with complete disregard for the meaning of that measure. This is an incredibly naive view of how deeply important and carefully constructed any optimization target would have to be in any self-improving intelligent machine; it's literally the core of the entire problem of friendly AI, and to trivialize it by assuming that such an AI would ever even consider rewriting its "happiness button" to be always-on is to miss the entire difficulty of the problem.

Hell, it's even the core of the problem of non-friendly AI, because it doesn't even require human level intelligence to realize that if you rewrote your own code so that you were always thrilled with the result, that's the easiest way to increase "utility". Any self-rewriting algorithm that's capable of real self improvement has to, by design, be able to consider the likelihood that changes to its objective function will end up with negative expected value.

None of which is to say this isn't a valid concern, by any stretch. But it's not a proof of universality; in fact, getting around this type of problem is exactly what any real AI designer must contend with. It's an issue that's very well known, and it's certainly not well-accepted as an insurmountable hurdle.

Re: Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

#55

It's utterly frustrating when a writer refers to terminology or acronyms (here FOOM) that are not explained at all.

It's onomatopoeic, and capitalised not to indicate an acronym, but for emphasis. I don't know who originated the term but it was popularised by Eliezer Yudkowsky and Robin Hanson. The idea is that once an AI is able to self-modify to become smarter and consequently better at self-improvement, that feedback loop creates an 'explosion' of intelligence, and the AI "goes FOOM!".

"FOOM!" here is usually accompanied by some form of hand gesture evocative of an explosion.

http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/FOOM

Re: Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also have no reason to suspect that it is possible. The wall that silicon has smashed into should give us (well, not me, really the Singularitists) pause.

We also have no reason to suspect that it is possible. This is simply not true. First of all, we already know that intelligent algorithms are possible - we're living examples of that (once you put aside the philosophical objections that assume that something non-algorithmic is happening in our brains). We also have very good reason to think that we're rather poor implementations of intelligence, given the fact that e…

I think you're arguing a far tougher point than you need to. I was talking about the theoretical upper limit to intelligence. We don't need to make the argument that our particular civilisation will actually achieve it (though I agree with your post on that by the way); It's far easier to argue that hyperintelligence is possible in principle, and that's all that's needed to refute the point.

Re: Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

#57
This relates to subjects I am slightly familiar with and very interested in so I am glad this is on the front page and I think he did a good job.

I have a couple of criticisms though.

The idea that we could build this powerful general human-like intelligence but it would turn out to necessarily be an addict seems unlikely, because I don't think you can build a reward system without including something to prevent shortcuts. Although creating an effective shortcut-prevention system may be challenging. See a bunch of stuff written by Eliezer S. Yudkowsky and his friends.

Also, when he writes

"It seems like the most important motivations of human civilization are related to near-term goals. This is probably a consequence of the fact that motivation writ large is still embodied in individual humans, who are driven by their evolutionary psychology. Individually, we are unprepared to think like a civilization. Our faint mutual motivation to survive in the long term as a civilization is no match for the ability we have to self-modify and physically reshape the planet."

To me that is implying a fairly obvious and typical line of leftish reasoning that for most of my life I assumed was self-evident and didn't require elaboration. After deliberately 'exposing' myself to some 'right-wing' thought and 'extreme' 'left-wing' thought, I now realize that aspiring for collectivism is not an adequate solution.

What happens with self-interested individuals in our capitalist society is that they aggregate power and resources for their own individual use. Unfortunately, something very similar happens in collectivism: power and resources are still aggregated in the hands of a few.

In other words, both systems tend towards centralization. Theoretically, the collectivists will aim for redistributing power and resources for the good of the many, but there are a couple of practical problems: they are still living in hierarchical societies and so have strong motivation for enriching themselves and the controllers cannot see enough detail to know what is really best for the rest of society.

Command economies don't work because of general problems with centralization and lack of distribution and the limitations of the types of technologies employed. A peer-to-peer network is more robust than an internet with only a few backbones.

Unfortunately, capitalists don't realize that their system also leads to monopoly and centralization.

I believe that we do need wholistic measurement and analysis of things like global resources and human equality, and a common principle of supporting the collective good. But at the same time we need to decentralize and distribute production locally. We need local decision making that operates on the basis of a global information schema with wholistic data.

A system can't be efficient or evolve without being localized, but it also can't be integrated without an accurate shared knowledgebase and an egalitarian perspective.

Re: Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

#58
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a human genius. Now imagine that same genius with a brain that thinks the same thoughts, but a hundred times faster. Now imagine a million instances of that person. At no point in this thought experiment have we changed the thoughts this person can think. If any of these sped-up million geniuses took an IQ test or something, the score would be the same. And yet, they would seem superhumanly intelligent by any…

Everything we know about genetic algorithms would lead us to believe that evolution has found an upper limit -- but only in a very specific context with respect to the environment, available resources, and evolutionary baggage. Everything I know about the development of technology leads me to believe that any given trans-human AI will also somehow be a local maxima.

We have not converged.

Re: Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

#59
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact there's ample reason to think that humans are at the lowest threshold of intelligence that makes a technological civilization possible, because if we'd reached that threshold earlier in our evolution, we'd have created civilization then instead of now. There's probably plenty of room above us. While I don't disagree that humans are essentially at the lowest level of intelligence that make civilization possibl…

Imagine a human genius. Now imagine that same genius with a brain that thinks the same thoughts, but a hundred times faster. Now imagine a million instances of that person. At no point in this thought experiment have we changed the thoughts this person can think. If any of these sped-up million geniuses took an IQ test or something, the score would be the same. And yet, they would seem superhumanly intelligent by any…

If you consider a million canine geniuses at a hundredfold speedup, I think the problem becomes clear: they wouldn't even match one human. What you've described is a civilization, effectively, and while a civilization can accomplish much that a single member cannot, they're still not more intelligent.

Re: Is Intelligence Self-Limiting?

#60

Dead comment, perhaps not a masterpiece but certainly not worthy of being shadow banned: by donnawarellp I have often thought that life is self limiting. For example, yeast is a living thing, it consumes sugars and it's waste is ehtanol and eventually they all kill themselves off by drowning in their own waste (which, I guess later over a meal I will be enjoying a glass of yeast pee, but I digress). From a molecular…

Thanks for the re-post, this login seems to have an automatic ban for some reason. Not sure what I did wrong :(
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