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At this company, we are family

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Re: At this company, we are family

#51

Post by Arisaka1 »

My first job was with a "we are a family" company, they used stupid names for the employees internally but also in the job post, together with an emoji spam that couldn't say "how you do fellow kids?" any harder, ask to "see yourself like an entrepreneur" and "be the leader of your own ideas" obviously taking far less than the actual company owners.

After a while I had to resign due to mental health problem manifesting as depression and burnout to the point where I couldn't even enjoy my favorite video games. I started therapy which hasn't been going as well as I would like but that's another subject.

A month ago I talked to a colleague to see how they're doing. He informed me that another guy left 1 week after I did, but the best part is how he told me that "unlike you at least he gave a 2 week notice". To this day I still wonder if I was really the one unprofessional and that I should just force myself to "work". And I use quotes because I don't know how anyone would expect someone who literally have to force himself to get up from the bed and brush his teeth to be productive. I'm not the kind of person who sees himself as unprofessional and if I had no health problems interrupting my daily life I'd have no issues upholding the 2 week notice.

Turns out there is such a thing as a toxic family.

Re: At this company, we are family

#53

Post by eek2121 »

davidw wrote: post #34
intothemild wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's autistic, these kinds of companies are very difficult for me. Usually the "we're family" companies are also the "let's have a social event constantly", or return to the office days are also just filled with socializing. I get it.. some people really enjoy that, but that's not everyone. It feels like it's by design to exclude other kinds of people who don't enjoy a hyper social environment.

This is why the interview process should include 'culture fit' so that it can weed out people who would be good at getting the work done but not fun for the bros to hang out and drink beer with.

Many interviews do. I have missed out on jobs because of it, bur have also landed some great opportunities thanks to it.

Re: At this company, we are family

#54

Post by JohnFen »

FredPret wrote: post #21
jylam wrote: post #16

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about…

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

> Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax.

This isn't actually true. The total US tax burden is very similar to that of other modern nations.

Re: At this company, we are family

#55

Post by FredPret »

playing_colours wrote: post #38
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

In Germany we have probation period of 6 months that helps both sides to decide if they want to continue employment. Can you please explain the causation between easiness of firing / hiring and high salaries?

Well probation isn't really what I was talking about. That's sort of a pre-employment notice period.

I'm talking about a post-employment notice period. How much notice does the employee get between getting fired and then no longer receiving paycheques? Basically, how much severance does the company have to pay?

Add to this any red tape involved in firing someone.

Now look at it from the point of view of the company. If I, the business owner, know that I have to comply with a raft of regulations and pay several months' severance to fire someone, I'll be very reluctant to hire them in the first place. I'll jump through hoops, work late nights, outsource the job, do anything I can to avoid hiring someone.

On the other hand, if I'm in an at-will state in the US, you can fire someone for no reason with zero notice. Seems crazy right? But it means I won't even think twice about hiring someone either. Could they maybe help on a project? Sure, hire them! Frequently one thing leads to another and employees stay on for a long time anyway.

Now in the second case the same number of companies with the same capital available will end up hiring lots more people due to the lower friction.

Make it easy to get out of a situation, and more people will want to get into that situation.

Re: At this company, we are family

#56

Post by jylam »

jraby3 wrote: post #40
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

I’m not convinced Americans pay less in taxes. When you include state taxes, social security from the employee and employer, then it starts to look like much less of a difference. When you include health insurance and college education, Americans get much less value. I do agree with the first half of your comment. American labor laws make it easier to fire which allows employers to take more risk in hiring.

> "I do agree with the first half of your comment. American labor laws make it easier to fire which allows employers to take more risk in hiring. "

less risk, you used the wrong word. If they can fire easily, they take less risk by hiring. That's more risk for the employee though, you miss the fact that most of the people is not HN, and they don't get paid 6 or 7 figures and don't find a job in days if they really need to.

Re: At this company, we are family

#57

Post by dkarl »

FredPret wrote: post #21
jylam wrote: post #16

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about…

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

Do you really mean that threatening to claw back severance from critics of the company is a significant part of what makes the U.S. job market work?

Re: At this company, we are family

#58

Post by Firaxus »

tambourine_man wrote: post #50
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

This is an often repeated mantra: “sure you'll lose some rights, but it will be way easier to find higher paying jobs in a more dynamic market”. I've lived in two countries that went through this transition in labor laws to follow the neoliberal playbook. Guess what happened. See also “less regulation will mean more agile and competitive market which will auto regulate itself”, etc.

Can you elaborate further on the points of what happened, the countries themselves, and the final quote?

Re: At this company, we are family

#59

Post by xyzelement »

This is well written and I agree that family is a very imperfect analogy for a working relationship. At the same time, some work situations are more or less family-like and it still pays to look for the "more."

I've been lucky that 4 companies I've worked at in my life so far have been very "employee forward" - creating scenarios of employee growth and engagement (vs putting employees in the seat of powerless cogs). All 4 companies have had a layoff of some sort for various reasons (business line shutdown, covid business hit, interest rate hit, grew too fast - respectively) and I have been affected by one of the layoffs (the other one, I left right before employees were bought out) but I am still happy to have worked there vs anywhere else because of these factors.

"Family" doesn't mean employing you past the point it makes sense, it's more about how you're related to when you're here. Are you encouraged to grow, to make connections, are you paid well, does the company try to give you good benefits, etc. You want a place that does all of that. You don't have to call it "family" - but it's a totally different vibe from a sweatshop.

Re: At this company, we are family

#60

Post by hirako2000 »

playing_colours wrote: post #38
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

In Germany we have probation period of 6 months that helps both sides to decide if they want to continue employment. Can you please explain the causation between easiness of firing / hiring and high salaries?

What I understood is that it's pretty easy to fire someone in the US without cause. Pretty impossible in most countries in Europe.
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