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Istanbul's blue tile paradise

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Re: Istanbul's blue tile paradise

#51

Post by daemoens »

JKolios wrote: post #45
fathyb wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice use of scare quotes but that's false. It has been a mosque from 1453 until the 1930s. I have to say, I'm seeing this kind of "byzantine fake news" more and more on HN threads related to Islamic history.

What exactly is "false" or "fake news" about the parent comment? All three sentences look entirely factual to me: The Hagia Sophia was indeed a church. The Hagia Sophia was also indeed a museum. The reconversion into a Mosque was also widely criticized.

The omission of the fact that it was a mosque since 1453. It hasn't been a Christian orthodox church for 567 years.

Re: Istanbul's blue tile paradise

#52

Post by klyrs »

ChainOfFools wrote: post #19
objektif wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are doing Istanbul and Rome a disservice by putting them in the same league with London and Paris.

Seconding this, these cities have a rich history but it's hardly a footnote compared to the chronology baked in to the stratigraphy of Rome and even more so, Istanbul. The latter city bridges two continents, and it shows it and feels it in every respect. plus, cats. In what city can you double your entertainment just by carrying a small laser pointer with you everywhere.

> just by carrying a small laser pointer with you everywhere.

Damn, I need to go back if only because I never thought of this. :D

Re: Istanbul's blue tile paradise

#53

Post by replyhello »

abeppu wrote: post #47
throwaway6734 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the premier eastern orthodox christian church for a 1000 years before that and taken by conquest. Of course some people are still salty about that. It would be like the Jews turning Mecca into a synagogue or st peters basilica being turned into a mosque

As a non-religious person, I find the indignation about the idea of turning one flavor of house of worship to the god of Abraham into another flavor of house of worship to the god of Abraham to be pretty amusing. And when it happens, it seems so spiteful! Last year I saw the Mosque-Cathedral of Cordoba, and I was struck that the Catholics seemed to be stuffing figurative art _everywhere_, and I guessed it was partly…

>Would it really be _so_ bad if you had one big fancy palace which switched from hosting Muslims on Friday, Jews on Saturday, Christians on Sunday and could be a museum / community space / charity space Mon-Thurs?

1. Muslims, Christians, and Jews view each other as disbelievers.

2. Mosques, and I assume churches and synagogues (I'm less familiar) do act as community and charity spaces.

3. Making a museum out of a place built for the worship and glorification of God is extremely offensive.

4. Mosques, and I assume churches and synagogues are not only used on Friday/Saturday/Sunday.

5. Your cariciature only makes sense if you view faith as a hobby to be set aside once you leave the mosque/church/synagogue gates, an ardently secular worldview at odds with faith.

Re: Istanbul's blue tile paradise

#54

Post by replyhello »

goodbyesf wrote: post #44
OkayPhysicist wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation... You should read some Turkish history. After the fall of the Ottoman empire, and being divided up amongst various winners of WWI, the modern Turkey led by Ataturk reclaimed their lost territory and established a country based on overtly western principles. The reforms were deep, and sweeping: A new alphabet, to make Turkish more approachable to people used to Latin…

> A new alphabet, to make Turkish more approachable to people used to Latin scripts. If china adopts latin script does that make china a member of the West? Of course not. 'The West' is called that for a reason. It's predominantly western ( the west ) european nations and their genetic colonial descendents ( aka colonies that have predominantly european blood, power ). We could adopt chinese as our official language…

[dead]

Re: Istanbul's blue tile paradise

#55

Post by mrtksn »

goodbyesf wrote: post #43
mrtksn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all, Turkey is an ethnically diverse nation where almost all the population claims to be muslims but they all practice at different levels and the devote muslims are a small minority of the population. The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already. Then Atatürk…

> Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all It's a predominantly islamic turkish speaking nation. You say 'almost all the population claims to be muslim' and say it's not a muslim nation? > The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries No. The ottoman empire was a legacy of the turkish nation. It's why the ottoman empire is also called the turkish empire. The nation…

You really need to stop speaking about stuff you don’t know. Opinions are fine but factual problems like chronology are not forgivable. You will be surprised that the westernization of the society was something that started as a political movement during the Ottoman empire and if you check the numbers, you will see that the empire was long gone before the World War II. That’s why I don’t think that you deserve any serious answer because you are off completely. It’s like you claiming that the French Revolution happened because the French listened too much Rolling Stones.

In case you decided to check out the history of Turkey, you also need to stop thinking about the Turkish society in American cultural war therms if you like to understand what is going on in Turkey.

Or maybe you are Turkish nationalist who believes in the mythology. Then yes, this would be a touchy subject to you because it is hurting your nationalist pride. You should hold nationalist pride parades.

Or even worse, are you believer of the AKP's alternative history where the Ottomans were the pinnacle of science&technology, Abdulhamit was a hero and Ataturk was a British spy? In that case, you should watch less series on the governments TV channels.

Re: Istanbul's blue tile paradise

#56

Post by refurb »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #46
OkayPhysicist wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation... You should read some Turkish history. After the fall of the Ottoman empire, and being divided up amongst various winners of WWI, the modern Turkey led by Ataturk reclaimed their lost territory and established a country based on overtly western principles. The reforms were deep, and sweeping: A new alphabet, to make Turkish more approachable to people used to Latin…

I thought it was hilarious when George W. Bush used to say things like "We're bringing democracy to the Middle East" when for most of the 20th century Turkey was arguably more democratic (not to mention more secular) than the US.

I mean Israel is there as well?

Maybe he didn’t mean those countries?

Seems obvious?

Re: Istanbul's blue tile paradise

#57

Post by mhusa »

abeppu wrote: post #47
throwaway6734 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the premier eastern orthodox christian church for a 1000 years before that and taken by conquest. Of course some people are still salty about that. It would be like the Jews turning Mecca into a synagogue or st peters basilica being turned into a mosque

As a non-religious person, I find the indignation about the idea of turning one flavor of house of worship to the god of Abraham into another flavor of house of worship to the god of Abraham to be pretty amusing. And when it happens, it seems so spiteful! Last year I saw the Mosque-Cathedral of Cordoba, and I was struck that the Catholics seemed to be stuffing figurative art _everywhere_, and I guessed it was partly…

Meditation rooms in many airports have a shared sacred space concept. They are often hard to find, but a practical example of cooperation and coexistence.

Re: Istanbul's blue tile paradise

#58

Post by watwut »

goodbyesf wrote: post #29
mrtksn wrote: post #12

Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome and probably nothing else. Not only the endless layers of multi-millennial history, even the current state of the inhabitants is extremely diverse. It's also surprisingly safe. IMHO the city got ruined in so many ways during the Turkish economic boom the last 5 decades and yet you can tell that the city "still got it". In your runtime analogy, the current state…

> Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome London and Paris do not belong on that list. Rome is on another level. Paris and London are a few levels below somewhere. Heck I'd say istanbul is a level above rome since the turks added onto constantinople and added a richness and extra layer that rome never got. Not to mention that the eastern roman empire was far more impressive that than the western roman…

> Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation, why should their mayor peddle 'western values' as you stated.

The mayor was peddling his own values. Why should the biggest radical assholes stop normal people from enjoying life anywhere? Whether islamists or christian evangelists, whether powerful enough to be able to kill people or not, they have no inherent entitlement.

Re: Istanbul's blue tile paradise

#59

Post by elnatro »

abeppu wrote: post #47
throwaway6734 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the premier eastern orthodox christian church for a 1000 years before that and taken by conquest. Of course some people are still salty about that. It would be like the Jews turning Mecca into a synagogue or st peters basilica being turned into a mosque

As a non-religious person, I find the indignation about the idea of turning one flavor of house of worship to the god of Abraham into another flavor of house of worship to the god of Abraham to be pretty amusing. And when it happens, it seems so spiteful! Last year I saw the Mosque-Cathedral of Cordoba, and I was struck that the Catholics seemed to be stuffing figurative art _everywhere_, and I guessed it was partly…

The Cathedral of Cordoba was a church (Arianism branch of Christianity) before the Muslims converted it to a mosque.

The Visigoth Kingdom was completely wiped out by Muslim invaders.

Re: Istanbul's blue tile paradise

#60

Post by csomar »

goodbyesf wrote: post #29
mrtksn wrote: post #12

Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome and probably nothing else. Not only the endless layers of multi-millennial history, even the current state of the inhabitants is extremely diverse. It's also surprisingly safe. IMHO the city got ruined in so many ways during the Turkish economic boom the last 5 decades and yet you can tell that the city "still got it". In your runtime analogy, the current state…

> Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome London and Paris do not belong on that list. Rome is on another level. Paris and London are a few levels below somewhere. Heck I'd say istanbul is a level above rome since the turks added onto constantinople and added a richness and extra layer that rome never got. Not to mention that the eastern roman empire was far more impressive that than the western roman…

The mayor was voted. Istanbul is mostly a “modern” muslim city. Which is to say that they are “muslims” but have different lifestyles than the other “muslims”.
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