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Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

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Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#51

Post by eszed »

_fat_santa wrote: post #45
stolenmerch wrote: post #21

I received a BA and MFA in small, idiosyncratic arts programs even more niche and unmarketable than puppetry. After graduation and realizing I'd never be employed, I set off taking free online CS courses and programming tutorials. In hindsight, I really wish I would have done it exactly opposite. Study computer science in college and take a couple of arts classes as electives or pursue it as a part-time hobby. It all…

the argument for liberal arts education I always heard goes like this: "college is not to learn a specific skill, but more to better yourself for the real world" and I can't help but think how devoid that is from reality today. Maybe back in the 60's and 70's you could go to college to "broaden your horizons" but today only the wealthiest can afford to do that, everyone else needs a "reason" (that is what sort of job…

I am not sure it's that much different. Back then - when vastly fewer people went to college - the degree itself was the credential for a professional job, but it didn't much matter what you'd studied. That may still apply for the "top-tier", most-prestigious institutions: I know a Harvard literature grad who walked straight into an executive-track role at a company you've heard of, because Harvard. That probably has more to do with networking effects than anything else, which arguably was true then, as well.

The current situation - colleges as trade schools, as you aptly put it - suits educational institutions quite well. Businesses like it, as well, because they can outsource early-career job training. It's only for, you know, actual people that the system doesn't work anymore.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#52

Post by turtlesdown11 »

stolenmerch wrote: post #21

I received a BA and MFA in small, idiosyncratic arts programs even more niche and unmarketable than puppetry. After graduation and realizing I'd never be employed, I set off taking free online CS courses and programming tutorials. In hindsight, I really wish I would have done it exactly opposite. Study computer science in college and take a couple of arts classes as electives or pursue it as a part-time hobby. It all…

> it reminds me how many of these arts and humanities programs are legacies of a bygone economic era

Ah yes, that bygone economic era of prosperity. In it's place today, a shrinking economy, one must posit from your comment? Surely current economics show a great decline in prosperity?

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDPC1/

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#53

Post by deepsun »

_fat_santa wrote: post #45
stolenmerch wrote: post #21

I received a BA and MFA in small, idiosyncratic arts programs even more niche and unmarketable than puppetry. After graduation and realizing I'd never be employed, I set off taking free online CS courses and programming tutorials. In hindsight, I really wish I would have done it exactly opposite. Study computer science in college and take a couple of arts classes as electives or pursue it as a part-time hobby. It all…

the argument for liberal arts education I always heard goes like this: "college is not to learn a specific skill, but more to better yourself for the real world" and I can't help but think how devoid that is from reality today. Maybe back in the 60's and 70's you could go to college to "broaden your horizons" but today only the wealthiest can afford to do that, everyone else needs a "reason" (that is what sort of job…

Depends on your social class. In UK wealthy families don't learn skills, they are above that already. They learn history, literature, rhetoric.

They won't need to "do", they are here to "be".

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#54

Post by variadix »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #20
NickC25 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. This honestly is the crux of the issue with higher education. In fact, most things we learn outside of STEM in academia can be learned elsewhere - literature, languages, arts, etc. I'm 100% for the humanities, and majored in them myself. But they shouldn't cost a fortune to study, nor should they really be in a narrow results-focused academic environment. No…

> In fact, most things we learn outside of STEM in academia can be learned elsewhere - literature, languages, arts, etc. Why specify STEM as being an exception to that rule? Are people unable to learn programming or math outside of academia? It's a shame the arts aren't seen as valid jobs and so are unworthy of investment.

Some parts of STEM are very accessible outside of an institution (math, CS, theory) but for many fields of engineering and hard sciences you need expensive equipment and materials that may also be hazardous to work with if you’re untrained. Even for fields that are mostly done on computers, there’s still the issue of the software used being too expensive for a typical individual to purchase.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#55

Post by bsder »

nvahalik wrote: post #12
jkingsbery wrote: post #11

Not everything that we learn has to be learned in college. Not sure if 100% accurate, but a quick google search shows WVU tuition is about $9k for in-state, $25k out of state... does it really make sense for someone to spend $100k (or $36k, for West Virginia residents) to learn puppetry? If that's your thing, great, why not go apprentice yourself somewhere to learn that skill instead? Or offer a class or two in puppe…

> why not go apprentice yourself somewhere There has been a big push in the last 20 years or so to make sure that everyone makes a "living wage". This, in turn, makes it nearly impossible for people who want to learn a trade while making something (anything) from actually doing so. Their work and time is basically worthless. They can't be paid accordingly, so they just don't... Unless you want to volunteer, but most…

> There has been a big push in the last 20 years or so to make sure that everyone makes a "living wage". This, in turn, makes it nearly impossible for people who want to learn a trade while making something (anything) from actually doing so.

Checking Austin IBEW, it goes from starting apprentice at about $17/hr+benefits and goes up every year guaranteed until hitting about $34/hr+benefits at base rate for a journeyman. "Living wage" isn't going to impinge on that except at the very bottom.

However, people don't want to do trades because it's really hard work.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#56

Post by ChainOfFools »

driggs wrote: post #37

WV is among the bottom 5 poorest states in the US, with West Virginia University critical for providing affordable in-state college education. WVU is urgently dealing with a $45-million budget shortfall. I know two graduates of the Puppetry program, and neither of them work professionally in any puppetry-related career. They may as well have graduated with any liberal arts degree. The Puppetry major gave them a way t…

Like most of these humanities programs that are ridiculed as being superfluous, the name of the program only describes about 20 or 30% of the coursework involved.

The rest of it is going to be a fairly standard trip through most of the usual lower division classes required for any four-year, plus a number of courses that are not related to the core subject but from which the core subject, say in this case puppetry, becomes a kind of base camp from which your exploration of other more practical and/or conventional subjects (i.e. psychology or marketing or foreign relarions) is conducted.

These people aren't literally learning how to build puppets and put on shows everyday for 4 years.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#57

Post by webnrrd2k »

Has no one ever seen The Muppet Show? Seassame Street? Farscape? Labyrinth? The Peawee Herman Show?

It's important to preserve these academic programs, with Theater Arts, and the Humanities in general. The real problem is with the outrageous cost of higher education. The time has passed when people could get an eccentric degree, and get a good job right out of school based on simply having a degree.

With that said, the reality is that the times have changed. It's not worth it in the long term (at least to me) to graduate with a bunch of debt and no concrete education towards getting a job.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#58

Post by DiscourseFan »

jjulius wrote: post #27
hospitalJail wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineering and sciences are super interesting. Heck, puppets sound sooo boring. Literature sounds incredibly boring. Theatre? So boring professors had to give extra credit so people would attend. Meanwhile our robotics senior project had a huge portion of the school watching because we were shooting projectiles. (but really my favorites were chemistry lab, and quantum chemistry(PChem2), maybe my programming classes…

>... my favorites... Ah, therein lies the rub. Your post reads like you're applying your own tastes/interests to, well, everyone. You are not everyone else.

People's tastes do not develop in isolation

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#59

Post by jjulius »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #58
jjulius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>... my favorites... Ah, therein lies the rub. Your post reads like you're applying your own tastes/interests to, well, everyone. You are not everyone else.

People's tastes do not develop in isolation

And yet what's trash to one person is still treasure to another.

Re: Can a puppetry major survive a flagship’s financial crisis? Should it?

#60

Post by Kon-Peki »

deepsun wrote: post #53
_fat_santa wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the argument for liberal arts education I always heard goes like this: "college is not to learn a specific skill, but more to better yourself for the real world" and I can't help but think how devoid that is from reality today. Maybe back in the 60's and 70's you could go to college to "broaden your horizons" but today only the wealthiest can afford to do that, everyone else needs a "reason" (that is what sort of job…

Depends on your social class. In UK wealthy families don't learn skills, they are above that already. They learn history, literature, rhetoric. They won't need to "do", they are here to "be".

> I could fill Volumes with Descriptions of Temples and Palaces, Paintings, Sculptures, Tapestry, Porcelaine, &c. &c. &c.—if I could have time. But I could not do this without neglecting my duty.—The Science of Government it is my Duty to study, more than all other Sciences: the Art of Legislation and Administration and Negotiation, ought to take Place, indeed to exclude in a manner all other Arts.—I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematicks and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelaine

John Adams to Abigail Adams, May 1780

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Adams/04-03-02-0258

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