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Canadian judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance

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Re: Canadian judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance

#51

Post by notyourwork »

kzrdude wrote: post #45
notyourwork wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a thumbs up in the same way I read "ok" which is affirming agreement. Me: "Want to goto the movies?" You: "Ok". We're going to the movies. I don't interpret this as you are acknowledging receipt of my message and will decide later whether or not you will attend. I would apply the same rationale to a thumbs up. You are saying, ok. Others may disagree.

This has tripped me up in stores. You bring 1 item and they tell you, "This thing is two for X (price)". If you then say "Ok" disinterestedly, will they sell you one or two of those?

You left out the rest of the sentence which makes it an incomplete sentence. Usually this is followed by "would you like another?" or something along the lines that becomes a yes or no question.

Merely saying "This is two for x." is a statement, not a question.

Re: Canadian judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance

#52

Post by kzrdude »

notyourwork wrote: post #51
kzrdude wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has tripped me up in stores. You bring 1 item and they tell you, "This thing is two for X (price)". If you then say "Ok" disinterestedly, will they sell you one or two of those?

You left out the rest of the sentence which makes it an incomplete sentence. Usually this is followed by "would you like another?" or something along the lines that becomes a yes or no question. Merely saying "This is two for x." is a statement, not a question.

That's why it tripped me up, they didn't ask a question. I just mundanely said "Ok" to their statement and it was understood as an intention to buy

Re: Canadian judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance

#53

Post by Daishiman »

leakycap wrote: post #4

Recent Canadian court rulings have made me wonder if I live in an extremely US-system mindset; it is hard to understand the logic here. The buyer was concerned about this transaction, it seems - they sent a message asking: “please confirm flax contract” In response they did not get a contract. They got a thumbs up. What's next, text a thumbs up to a car salesman who is trying to get you to agree to a deal and now you…

No, this is how courts have always interpreted contracts.

Agreement can be given in a number of ways. Signatures and official documents are a way to safeguard said assent, but in the case of ambiguity courts have broad latitude to interpret thing in the right context.

Re: Canadian judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance

#55

Post by [deleted] »

leakycap wrote: post #5
JimtheCoder wrote: post #3

It was not "just" a thumbs up emoji, there were preceding negotiations as well. Sort of important...

It seems the negotiations and previous history of transactions is what the court decided was most persuasive, but I'm surprised that a non-signed contract was considered signed with any sort of non-textual response. Hypothetical response: "Got the contract. Will send a signed copy ASAP!" Did this accept and sign the contract? What if the sender of that text reads the contract before signing and realizes a mistake, mi…

[deleted]

Re: Canadian judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance

#56

Post by dragonwriter »

HelloMcFly wrote: post #40
JohnFen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The thumbs-up was in response to the very clear request "please confirm flax contract." In that context, I think 99% of people would take that as confirmation of the contract rather than an "I got your message" response. But it does underline your point, which is correct: when it comes to contracts, it's wise to be as painfully clear as possible.

> I think 99% of people would take that as confirmation I think people are waaaayyy to confident that their perspective sits in the 99% majority. I realize you're being hyperbolic, but I'd expect this percentage to be closer to 50% myself.

Outside of criminal convictions and some other special cases, minimally over 50% is often sufficient for the law.

Re: Canadian judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance

#57

Post by dragonwriter »

leakycap wrote: post #5
JimtheCoder wrote: post #3

It was not "just" a thumbs up emoji, there were preceding negotiations as well. Sort of important...

It seems the negotiations and previous history of transactions is what the court decided was most persuasive, but I'm surprised that a non-signed contract was considered signed with any sort of non-textual response. Hypothetical response: "Got the contract. Will send a signed copy ASAP!" Did this accept and sign the contract? What if the sender of that text reads the contract before signing and realizes a mistake, mi…

It wasn't deemed signed, it was deemed acceptance. In English-derived common law system, a written, signed agreement is required for certain special contracts, but the normal requirement is offer and acceptance of an agreement with consideration, writing and signatures are evidence of content and acceptance, but not generally required for it.

Re: Canadian judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance

#58

Post by dragonwriter »

LinuxBender wrote: post #29
JohnFen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think that would work in the US. I think it would. Verbal and "casual" contracts are binding in the US. The reason it's advised not to do business that way is the difficulty in proving the contract was agreed to in court, not that such contracts aren't valid.

I probably worded that poorly. By not working what I meant was that there are a lot of disingenuous people and we are very litigious in the US. I can't imagine verbal contracts being honored by the majority unless there are many witnesses. I mean, people dispute their actions even when caught on multiple cameras. It's just been my experience probably based on the best practices you describe that I always had to have…

> I can't imagine verbal contracts being honored by the majority unless there are many witnesses.

Evidence of the content and acceptance of contracts that aren’t signed writings can be hard to establish, but this very case shows that it is not impossible, especially when they aren't literally oral contracts (“verbal” just means “in words”; written contracts are verbal, but not oral, agreements.)

Re: Canadian judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance

#59

Post by dragonwriter »

dghughes wrote: post #42

If someone leaves their phone unattended I can gives a thumbs up and get them on the hook for tens of thousands of dollars.

Yeah, this is just like a forged signature: falsified evidence of an agreement that never took place.

Yes, its a vulnerability, its also a serious legal wrong in its own right (on top of the trespass to chattels you need to do to accomplish it.)

Re: Canadian judge says thumbs-up emoji amounts to contract acceptance

#60

Post by DANmode »

notyourwork wrote: post #35
wnolens wrote: post #14

I don't know, I actually agree with the farmer here > “I did not have time to review the Flax Contract and merely wanted to indicate that I did receive his text message.” That is often how I use it on facebook messenger since it's so conveniently placed. It's fine that a verbal agreement is binding, but you should have to utter the sentence "I agree with the terms" or when asked a question with a yes/no answer, reply…

I read a thumbs up in the same way I read "ok" which is affirming agreement. Me: "Want to goto the movies?" You: "Ok". We're going to the movies. I don't interpret this as you are acknowledging receipt of my message and will decide later whether or not you will attend. I would apply the same rationale to a thumbs up. You are saying, ok. Others may disagree.

I'd caution against that. I'd read it as someone giving you a thumbs-up.

There's an "OK" emoji, which further disambiguates this.

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