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Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

theguardian.com

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Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#51

Post by _hypx »

WirelessGigabit wrote: post #50
_hypx wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a completely ignorant statement. Hydrogen cars actually exist and work exactly as advertised. There are no fundamental challenges. This reads like one of those anti-BEV posts from a decade ago. In both cases, the author is totally oblivious to the current state of technology. > It was never going to compete with electric. EVs have been slandered for so long that people just assumed we would come up with someth…

> Hydrogen cars are EVs. The Toyota Mirai is a hydrogen Fuel Cell car. BMW tried to create a hydrogen ICE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

I probably should have said "fuel cell cars are EVs." But yes, you can make an ICE powered by hydrogen. It is likely to be a niche product, mainly sports cars and perhaps some diesel engine replacements.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#52

Post by jqpabc123 »

_hypx wrote: post #46
jqpabc123 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are currently over 150000 public charging points available all across the USA. And there are no technological issues to prevent more from being installed. At some point, more capacity will be needed but again --- no technological issues to prevent this. Last time I looked there were less than 60 hydrogen refueling stations --- "pilot" projects in California put in place with government funding. I rest my case.…

You will need many millions of them, and enough generating capacity to power then all. That is many years away. Likely decades. There's also no technological issue preventing the expansion of hydrogen stations. It's also worth noting that this directly replaces the gas station, both in number and location. This is not nearly as big of a challenge as you might think. Unlike charging stations, which must exist in much…

Registration data shows there are around 2 million electric vehicles currently on the road in the USA.

Market research shows more than half of auto consumers will be looking at an EV when they need a new car.

Like it or not, hydrogen has already lost --- for a multitude of reasons. But keep flogging that dead pony.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#53

Post by _hypx »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #52
_hypx wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will need many millions of them, and enough generating capacity to power then all. That is many years away. Likely decades. There's also no technological issue preventing the expansion of hydrogen stations. It's also worth noting that this directly replaces the gas station, both in number and location. This is not nearly as big of a challenge as you might think. Unlike charging stations, which must exist in much…

Registration data shows there are around 2 million electric vehicles currently on the road in the USA. Market research shows more than half of auto consumers will be looking at an EV when they need a new car. Like it or not, hydrogen has already lost --- for a multitude of reasons. But keep flogging that dead pony.

There are about 300 million ICE cars in the US. BEVs are nowhere near ready to replace ICE cars.

What’s ironic is that BEV fans are just repeating the same anti-EV arguments used against BEVs. They’re not even aware that BEVs were at zero just a decade and a half ago. The fact is, FCEVs are needed by millions of people. As the world shifts to green energy, FCEVs will play a major role and likely one much bigger than what BEVs ever could’ve achieved. So the whole argument is just an act of shortsightedness.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#54

Post by jqpabc123 »

throwaway5959 wrote: post #31
Shawnj2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’ve been selling the Bz4x for about a year now which is basically an electric RAV4

It’s comically bad. The charging curve is horrible, entertainment system is a joke, doesn’t look appealing and has issues with retaining charge on the 12 volt battery.

Not to mention the wheels falling off.

It's almost like they released a bad car in an attempt to give EVs a bad name.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#55

Post by jqpabc123 »

_hypx wrote: post #53
jqpabc123 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Registration data shows there are around 2 million electric vehicles currently on the road in the USA. Market research shows more than half of auto consumers will be looking at an EV when they need a new car. Like it or not, hydrogen has already lost --- for a multitude of reasons. But keep flogging that dead pony.

There are about 300 million ICE cars in the US. BEVs are nowhere near ready to replace ICE cars. What’s ironic is that BEV fans are just repeating the same anti-EV arguments used against BEVs. They’re not even aware that BEVs were at zero just a decade and a half ago. The fact is, FCEVs are needed by millions of people. As the world shifts to green energy, FCEVs will play a major role and likely one much bigger than…

There are 45 EV models currently offered for sale all across the USA --- and more are on the way. Virtually every auto manufacturer either has one (or more) or is working overtime to make one.

There are 3 hydrogen vehicles currently offered for sale --- only in California. And nobody cares.

It should be obvious by now that the marketplace has already decided the future is electric. But keep flogging that dead pony.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#56

Post by _hypx »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #55
_hypx wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are about 300 million ICE cars in the US. BEVs are nowhere near ready to replace ICE cars. What’s ironic is that BEV fans are just repeating the same anti-EV arguments used against BEVs. They’re not even aware that BEVs were at zero just a decade and a half ago. The fact is, FCEVs are needed by millions of people. As the world shifts to green energy, FCEVs will play a major role and likely one much bigger than…

There are 45 EV models currently offered for sale all across the USA --- and more are on the way. Virtually every auto manufacturer either has one (or more) or is working overtime to make one. There are 3 hydrogen vehicles currently offered for sale --- only in California. And nobody cares. It should be obvious by now that the marketplace has already decided the future is electric. But keep flogging that dead pony.

And again, how many BEV models were available a decade or so ago? What exactly is suppose to keep hydrogen cars from being developed?

Also, why is your understanding of the marketplace something straight out of a video game, as if there is a end-credits scene and nothing happens afterwards? There's nothing stopping advancement in new technology, regardless of how successful current technology is. Progress always marches on.

Not to mention that fuel cell cars are electric...

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#57

Post by jqpabc123 »

_hypx wrote: post #56
jqpabc123 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 45 EV models currently offered for sale all across the USA --- and more are on the way. Virtually every auto manufacturer either has one (or more) or is working overtime to make one. There are 3 hydrogen vehicles currently offered for sale --- only in California. And nobody cares. It should be obvious by now that the marketplace has already decided the future is electric. But keep flogging that dead pony.

And again, how many BEV models were available a decade or so ago? What exactly is suppose to keep hydrogen cars from being developed? Also, why is your understanding of the marketplace something straight out of a video game, as if there is a end-credits scene and nothing happens afterwards? There's nothing stopping advancement in new technology, regardless of how successful current technology is. Progress always marc…

What exactly is suppose to keep hydrogen cars from being developed?

Better question --- What keeps hydrogen from being a commercially viable energy source?

Short answer: Economics. The same reason you don't (and probably won't) run your home from hydrogen --- because electricity is a much more universal form of energy that can be produced, safely distributed and utilized more easily/cheaply/efficiently.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#58

Post by _hypx »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #57
_hypx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And again, how many BEV models were available a decade or so ago? What exactly is suppose to keep hydrogen cars from being developed? Also, why is your understanding of the marketplace something straight out of a video game, as if there is a end-credits scene and nothing happens afterwards? There's nothing stopping advancement in new technology, regardless of how successful current technology is. Progress always marc…

What exactly is suppose to keep hydrogen cars from being developed? Better question --- What keeps hydrogen from being a commercially viable energy source? Short answer: Economics. The same reason you don't (and probably won't) run your home from hydrogen --- because electricity is a much more universal form of energy that can be produced, safely distributed and utilized more easily/cheaply/efficiently.

Funny, because the economics of hydrogen is heading to nearly zero cost. This is the same trajectory of wind and solar. All of these things have one thing in common: They all are made from practically infinite and free resources. Wind, sunlight and water are very cheap after all. This will imply that hydrogen will also be very cheap.

Also, hydrogen is more ubiquitous than electricity. In fact, it is cheaper to distribute hydrogen than electricity, simply on account of how pipes work compared to wires.

In short, if your argument is economical in nature, then your conclusion is profoundly wrong. It is a matter of when, not if, the lower cost basis of hydrogen based vehicles will cause them to displace BEVs. Also, BEVs have major environmental and practical downsides. I suspect that once the hydrogen movement gets going, BEVs will not pose much of a fight. It will be discarded as just another transitional idea. After all, FCEVs are also EVs.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#59

Post by jqpabc123 »

_hypx wrote: post #58
jqpabc123 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is suppose to keep hydrogen cars from being developed? Better question --- What keeps hydrogen from being a commercially viable energy source? Short answer: Economics. The same reason you don't (and probably won't) run your home from hydrogen --- because electricity is a much more universal form of energy that can be produced, safely distributed and utilized more easily/cheaply/efficiently.

Funny, because the economics of hydrogen is heading to nearly zero cost. This is the same trajectory of wind and solar. All of these things have one thing in common: They all are made from practically infinite and free resources. Wind, sunlight and water are very cheap after all. This will imply that hydrogen will also be very cheap. Also, hydrogen is more ubiquitous than electricity. In fact, it is cheaper to distri…

This will imply that hydrogen will also be very cheap.

This will imply that electricity will be even cheaper.

Most of the practical schemes for breaking molecular bonds in order to release hydrogen uses electricity and lots of it.

Eventually some intelligent hydrogen fanboy will hit upon a bright idea --- let's forget all this hydrogen stuff and just use all the electricity we are generating directly --- cause it's easier, cheaper and more efficient.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#60

Post by moolcool »

_hypx wrote: post #42
moolcool wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a cynical comment like this on every battery story, ignoring the fact that battery breakthroughs do exist, and that lithium ion energy density has ~tripled in the past decade.

> lithium ion energy density has ~tripled in the past decade. That's actually false. It originated from a literally made-up story by Bloomberg. In reality, NCA cells have existed since the late-2000s. Effective energy density was 250 Wh/kg. We have not significantly improved on this value since then.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1234-apri...
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