Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#51

Post by stdbrouw » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 2:06 PM UTC

route66 wrote: post #44

pgeorgi wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there's the other issue that a failed founder in Germany is pariah. From reading here and elsewhere, in the US you seem to get a reasonable chance (and maybe even some recognition) for having tried to start a company (and managed to keep it alive for some time). Here, you failed, so you will fail, so why should anyone employ you?

In a (possibly flawed) attempt to cheer you up: be aware that you basically say - failing is frowned upon in Germany - I do not want to run that risk - so I will not try to start a company Thereby effectively continuing the mantra "do nothing you could fail in". I think that entrepreneurship has got a lot to do with "acting in spite of" and would not assume the situation in the US (I don't know personally) to be like…

Definitely agree. Belgium has a similar culture to Germany and despite mucking around quite a bit, none of my friends or family has ever made a disparaging remark about my entrepreneurial vagabondry. They probably think it's weird for me not to just go work for BigCorp, and it's not like I get a ton of support from them, but they do try to be encouraging even in the face of failure and they certainly don't frown upon it.

There's probably a kernel of truth to the idea that Americans are more entrepreneurial and less judgmental than your average European, but the idea that, in Europe, failure turns you into a pariah seems like a nasty myth that becomes real simply through repeated mentions.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#52

Post by stdbrouw » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 2:12 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #50

stdbrouw wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, but it feels like you're railing against those political priorities because they don't suit you, not because they are wrong. I would love to have a startup hub somewhere in Europe (C'mon London, kick it up a notch!) but there are tons of other ways for governments to create jobs and further the economy. We shouldn't automatically assume that fostering tech startups is macroeconomically superior…

The challenge is not to create jobs. That is relatively easy. The challenge is to create businesses that can sustain themselves and thus help grow the economy. What do you mean with "they don't suit you" how wouldn't growth of danish economy suit me if that was the case?

> The challenge is to create businesses that can sustain themselves and thus help grow the economy.

Again, what evidence is there that tech startups achieve this goal more easily than any alternative?

> how wouldn't growth of danish economy suit me if that was the case?

You'd appreciate any kind of economic growth, I suppose, but wouldn't you prefer it if, in the process, you got a vibrant startup scene out of it, rather than if it happened all through education and clean tech? Nothing wrong with that, it's just that, say, your average student or blue collar worker would have a different perspective. The government's job is to figure out what would make most people happy, not what would make techies happy.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#53

Post by DasIch » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 2:31 PM UTC

ecaradec wrote: post #36

As a french, I get very strange feeling reading comments here. Germany is presented as an example by French gov for it's better industry (presidential elections are in May ). Does that means that Germany is not better, or that France is even worse ?

There is a huge difference between the state of the economy in general and the state of the startup scene.

That being said if we compare by economic growth I'd expect Germany and France to lead in Europe at the moment. Speaking as a German I have the impression that the people in France are underestimating there economy somewhat.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#54

Post by ThomPete » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 2:35 PM UTC

stdbrouw wrote: post #52

ThomPete wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The challenge is not to create jobs. That is relatively easy. The challenge is to create businesses that can sustain themselves and thus help grow the economy. What do you mean with "they don't suit you" how wouldn't growth of danish economy suit me if that was the case?

> The challenge is to create businesses that can sustain themselves and thus help grow the economy. Again, what evidence is there that tech startups achieve this goal more easily than any alternative? > how wouldn't growth of danish economy suit me if that was the case? You'd appreciate any kind of economic growth, I suppose, but wouldn't you prefer it if, in the process, you got a vibrant startup scene out of it, ra…

"Again, what evidence is there that tech startups achieve this goal more easily than any alternative?"

Where did I claim that?

I was showing evidence and argument that the proclaimed solution from the government isn't going to solve what they attempt to solve. I.e. just because you have better educated population doesn't mean that you get growth.

I suppose, but wouldn't you prefer it if, in the process, you got a vibrant startup scene out of it, rather than if it happened all through education and clean tech?

Can you please explain why I should prefer that?

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#55

Post by nir » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 2:44 PM UTC

zalew wrote: post #47

derrida wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because they are Shwarma's and are completely different again. The kebab is a Berlin invention (according to TimeOut Berlin). Which makes sense, a marriage of the German sausage + bread culture with some dish from the middle east.

> The kebab is a Berlin invention Wait, wat? Kebab is middle-eastern food with hundreds of years of history. 'Doner kebab' (the popular one in a bread) is Turkish. German sausage has nothing to do with it. There are lots of ways you can serve kebab/shoarma and none of them are 'wrong' per se. The popularity of doner and roll is probably just a matter of convenience for customers and business owners. The sauce thing w…

The word "Kebab" describes a different dish in the Middle East and in Germany.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#56

Post by zerostar07 » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 2:44 PM UTC

pgeorgi wrote: post #40

blumentopf wrote: post #28

Tell HN: I participated in a German Government startup program in 2004/2005 called EXIST-SEED (nowadays called EXIST Gründerstipendium). I wouldn't recommend this to anyone. The funding I got was relatively modest (35 kEUR in my case -- as a consultant I now earn more than that within 4 months) and I was drowned in bureaucracy. To this very day, I am arguing with the German IRS because they do not want to treat a fai…

And then there's the other issue that a failed founder in Germany is pariah. From reading here and elsewhere, in the US you seem to get a reasonable chance (and maybe even some recognition) for having tried to start a company (and managed to keep it alive for some time). Here, you failed, so you will fail, so why should anyone employ you?

This comes up often. Can you elaborate on how one becomes a pariah after failing a tech startup? And how does it make it impossible to get funding again? Is it because the banks will not give you loans due to bad credit or sth?

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#57

Post by DasIch » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 2:48 PM UTC

I'm currently in the 12th grade of a Gymnasium in Germany and while we get a lot of information on jobs, possible areas of study and things you can do after studying at a university creating or joining a startup is not even considered.

The risk is generally considered to be so high that you have to be unbelievably good at what you are doing, insane or most likely both to take it under consideration.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#58

Post by derrida » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 2:52 PM UTC

zalew wrote: post #47

derrida wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because they are Shwarma's and are completely different again. The kebab is a Berlin invention (according to TimeOut Berlin). Which makes sense, a marriage of the German sausage + bread culture with some dish from the middle east.

> The kebab is a Berlin invention Wait, wat? Kebab is middle-eastern food with hundreds of years of history. 'Doner kebab' (the popular one in a bread) is Turkish. German sausage has nothing to do with it. There are lots of ways you can serve kebab/shoarma and none of them are 'wrong' per se. The popularity of doner and roll is probably just a matter of convenience for customers and business owners. The sauce thing w…

according to Time-Out Berlin. Yeah, according to Wikipedia, I'm wrong. Never trust a travel guide. I've been to the Emirates and what they have there is entirely different to what they have in Germany. Australia, France and the Czech Republic have something different, which is 'the greasy thing'.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#59

Post by Roritharr » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 3:06 PM UTC

June 1.-3. i'm organizing a Startup Weekend in Frankfurt Germany, to get a strong Startup culture and community started here, and this will include more events in the future. I set out to do this not to copy the culture of silicon valley, rather the culture of the Amsterdam Startup scene and especially the Appsterdam Initiative.

When i was at Startup Weekend Amsterdam and got to meet Mike Lee and others it occured to me that this was a concept that was much more realistic for a european and especially german city.

In Germany getting VC Money is not easy and you have to be very careful how the deal is done because of Tax issues. Taking risks is very unpopular in Germany and failed startups are viewed upon as wasted money and time, failed founders are looked upon as pariahs.

To combat this all that helps is a very strong community that has a common denominator where people share their point of view which is different from most of the people around them and help them with problems that are common only to startups in germany.

Non-Startup-event-wise our city isn't bad. Our Webmondays draw >100 people, our Barcamps over 200. We've got a local Hackerspace which offers 3D Printing Workshops among other things. We have a strong web culture, although Co-Working spaces are still being set up and are still more expensive than i would like them to be.

Frankfurt is known mostly as a banking city and some Venture Capital Groups are based here. It's not ideal as office space doesn't come as cheap as elsewhere, but the infrastructure in Frankfurt is superb and I've never met so many qualified Freelancers as in the Rhine-Main-Area.

The founder of one of the current YC Company Popset, Nicolas Bös, is from Frankfurt and very excited that we're building something here, which comes to show that we have the potential here.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#60

Post by zalew » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 3:12 PM UTC

derrida wrote: post #58

zalew wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The kebab is a Berlin invention Wait, wat? Kebab is middle-eastern food with hundreds of years of history. 'Doner kebab' (the popular one in a bread) is Turkish. German sausage has nothing to do with it. There are lots of ways you can serve kebab/shoarma and none of them are 'wrong' per se. The popularity of doner and roll is probably just a matter of convenience for customers and business owners. The sauce thing w…

according to Time-Out Berlin . Yeah, according to Wikipedia, I'm wrong. Never trust a travel guide. I've been to the Emirates and what they have there is entirely different to what they have in Germany. Australia, France and the Czech Republic have something different, which is 'the greasy thing'.

and that's what I said. cultures mix, cuisine is imported, adapted to local preferences, exported again around other regions, that's how it works. You were only wrong saying that kebab was invented in Germany, it's just that there's where the modern well-known in Europe Turkish doner started do gain broad popularity - that's probably what your guide meant. I assume it was the saucy thing we have all around Europe.