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Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

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Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#51

Post by searealist »

josh_fyi wrote: post #5

I studied at Harvard and the answer is that they want to pretend to be so smart and talented that they don't need to work. The image is of the effete aristocrat who enjoys life without lifting a finger. Think of George W. Bush: Got into Yale (Harvard too!) because his blue-blood line always did. Mediocre grades. Lots of alcohol and drugs. (Quit that later.) Avoided Vietnam with the cushiest fun job as a fighter pilot…

What percentage of Harvard students would you say got in through family connections vs worked hard? Why do you focus on the former?

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#52

Post by jrflowers »

searealist wrote: post #46
atdt wrote: post #43

A large portion of the student body at every American college is "drowning themselves in pleasure and mindlessness". The simple, naturalistic explanation is that when Harvard students abandon themselves to partying and procrastination, it is for the same reason that students at Boston University or Colorado State do it: i.e., they're young, horny, and on the loose for the first time in life, and their mental circuitr…

You honestly believe that people who get into Harvard don't have more self-discipline on average that those who don't?

Can’t speak for the GP but I’d say “No they do not” to your question.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#53

Post by compiler-guy »

throwawayadvsec wrote: post #9

Or maybe they realize that once there is "Ivy League" on your resume, you pretty much cannot fail at life and will always find a good job no matter what, so might as well have a good time, instead of spending all your free time studying in pursuit of prestige.

I didn’t go to an Ivy League school, but I did go to Stanford. I assure you there are many of my classmates who failed at life, don’t have good jobs, and are otherwise don’t fit that description.

An elite education is like a golden ticket, to be sure, but it doesn’t guarantee anything at all. Plenty of folks screw it up.

Twenty-plus years now after my degree and no one cares at all about where I graduated. If I don’t keep up, I’m overboard just like anyone else.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#54

Post by MattGaiser »

epicureanideal wrote: post #35
doctorpangloss wrote: post #33

In my experience with my interns, many of whom graduated from Harvard like me, some students at all universities suffer from burnout from their strenuous childhoods. So I sympathize that some kids need to chill a little. I wouldn’t call it self sabotage, but I understand the author is just trying to understand their classmates better. I’m not sure if a cry for help / agitating at the university will matter. I’m not s…

Sounds like we really need some top universities, maybe new ones, to increase acceptance 10X or more, back to the level where they’d accept people who would’ve been accepted in 1970 with the same scores.

This won't change the stress. It will just move to something else, as a lot of the value in university is how it ranks you compared to others and one way or another, there will be some kind of ranking system.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#55

Post by noisy_boy »

cantrevealname wrote: post #49
bruce511 wrote: post #20

Some are born with goals, some find their own goals, and some have goals thrust upon them. Being a smart kid can be hard. Parents, teachers and peers see that mythical attribute "potential" and push you in directions to reach it. Get A's in school? Gotta be a doctor or lawyer. (OK, that ages me, today they'd be pushing for programmer.) Graduating college with a degree you never wanted must be depressing for the perso…

> Gotta be a doctor or lawyer ... today they'd be pushing for programmer. Where are you getting that from? Parents and teachers still push for doctor or lawyer for smart kids. Only if doctor or lawyer is unattainable would they suggest programmer. Furthermore, everybody still perceives doctors and lawyers to have higher status than programmers. Just look at TV shows from the 80s vs recent years: The high prestige cha…

Forget about status, I would rather not subject my kid to the constant catchup treadmill; jquery then, SPA yesterday, AI today, god-knows-what tomorrow, its like a never ending thing - its not enough to be stressed by work all week long, now you need to spend the couple of days of break also on learning the next flavor of the month.

Sure lawyers have to catchup with changing laws and doctors need to catchup with new medical breakthroughs but I doubt it is as much drinking from the firehose as programming is.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#56

Post by complex_exp »

bruce511 wrote: post #20

Some are born with goals, some find their own goals, and some have goals thrust upon them. Being a smart kid can be hard. Parents, teachers and peers see that mythical attribute "potential" and push you in directions to reach it. Get A's in school? Gotta be a doctor or lawyer. (OK, that ages me, today they'd be pushing for programmer.) Graduating college with a degree you never wanted must be depressing for the perso…

> Ivy league students don't get there by themselves. A life-time of adults help you.

See, this is what I do not get. I got without excessive effort into a top university in Europe. I never had to be taken care nearly this much. Learned calculus at 14-15 by buying an old book in a used book store. Learned programming at around the same age by reading C++ tutorials and doing programming competitions (ACM style, but easier). Ran in various science competitions, here indeed teachers helped me by giving me books, exercises and guidance, with greater or smaller success. Most of my university peers had similar histories. I believe I would be admitted to an Ivy school if I were American, based on my professional experience with people that studied there.

What gives? Is it the last >=2 decades that changed the picture too much? Is it somehow an exclusively American problem? Where are the self-motivated kids, why aren't they taking most spots in those schools? Did something systematically kill the motivation?

The slight (or perhaps not so slight) neurosis and coping mechanisms like "I wasn't even trying, so I didn't fail" imply that those kids are way, way past their comfort zone. Being this far out is very unhealthy, can even be lethal.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#57

Post by enufstuff »

> One of my friends would always say (after poor grades or job rejections) "I wasn't even trying." By his logic, if he didn't try, then he didn't really fail, because the true extent of his abilities remained untested. He would often play videos games rather than study, just so he could have a plausible excuse for failure. It would be an existential threat for him to do his absolute best but come up short.

I knew someone that fit this. Extremely smart and would often run circles around everyone. But when we landed a top-tier school she crumbled and used this exact excuse often - "she didn't fail because she didn't try."

Eventually she started showing mental illness in the form of delusions of grandeur and something else (not sure what). She claimed she was tested for "special" powers as a kid by the government - mind reading and ability to move objects with her mind. Eventually she came up with a story that she had cancer and needed to miss class all the time for chemo. She ended up getting expelled from the school because she refused to provide any documents from the doctors (ends up she lied and was cured "by a miracle" after she left school).

I've often wondered if her intelligence played a part in this psychotic break she demonstrated. I met a few others that were scary smart and clearly outliers at the school that showed similar behavior.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#58

Post by testermelon »

searealist wrote: post #46
atdt wrote: post #43

A large portion of the student body at every American college is "drowning themselves in pleasure and mindlessness". The simple, naturalistic explanation is that when Harvard students abandon themselves to partying and procrastination, it is for the same reason that students at Boston University or Colorado State do it: i.e., they're young, horny, and on the loose for the first time in life, and their mental circuitr…

You honestly believe that people who get into Harvard don't have more self-discipline on average that those who don't?

Assuming that they do, does it significantly change the patterns and tendencies of actions among that age group? I think the distribution of behavior should be intact even if you just sample among Harvard students.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#59

Post by p-e-w »

searealist wrote: post #46
atdt wrote: post #43

A large portion of the student body at every American college is "drowning themselves in pleasure and mindlessness". The simple, naturalistic explanation is that when Harvard students abandon themselves to partying and procrastination, it is for the same reason that students at Boston University or Colorado State do it: i.e., they're young, horny, and on the loose for the first time in life, and their mental circuitr…

You honestly believe that people who get into Harvard don't have more self-discipline on average that those who don't?

People who attend institutions considered "elite" have on average been told since early childhood that they are part of the elite.

In my experience, such people tend to have less self-discipline and fewer inhibitions than regular folks. That's a natural consequence of knowing that nothing truly bad can ever happen to you, no matter what you do.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#60

Post by MattGaiser »

> Although they talked about how badly they wanted to achieve, it seemed that their real goal was to guarantee failure.

Do they want to achieve or do they merely feel expected to?

I've had plenty of cases in my life where I did not want what someone expected/expects me to achieve, so my solution was/is to just never get around to it. It was a charade to maintain a reasonable level of social standing with the person expecting the thing without spending effort chasing something I did not value.

For example, I am very out of shape. Yes, it is not healthy, but the life I live doesn't require any physical capacity. I have other priorities. But if I say that, there are people who will be mad at me and increase their level of nagging. Better to show interest, and just let the lack of any success seem like failure.

There are plenty of cases where it is better to seem forgetful or incompetent than unambitious, even if you are.

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