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1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

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Re: 1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

#51

Post by arcticbull »

constantcrying wrote: post #44
arcticbull wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, seems pretty similar to me. Especially when the article itself identifies only 1.6% of the books as having a 17+ rating. [edit] Anyone who believes in freedom of expression and the first amendment should recognize this as a negative step, and a clear thin-edge issue. These are ideological decisions made by partisans with the goal being to shape the corpus of thinking of youth. "Will someone think of the children"…

>These are ideological decisions made by partisans with the goal being to shape the corpus of thinking of youth. You support neo-nazi propaganda not being in school libraries, so certainly you too believe that it is the duty of school libraries to curate the content. It is just incredibly dishonest to pretend that you are upset at this for any reason other than that you want these particular books available to childr…

> It is just incredibly dishonest to pretend that you are upset at this for any reason other than that you want these particular books available to children, which is exactly as partisan as demanding their absence.

That's not possible, as, and this is true, I didn't go through the list. I suggest that you may be assuming a lot about me.

Re: 1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

#52

Post by npstr »

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #19
npstr wrote: post #7

> it’s important to note that they are to the end of positive social change The end does not justify the means. Name me one single objectively bad political movement which internally thought of themselves as bad or negative. There isn't one. They all claim and for the largest part of their membership believe to serve the greater good. Therefore I find this argument of the author extremely weak. Surely they can come u…

To move away from sophistry and towards some concrete understanding, which of the sample books they provided for that blurb would you say is "true negative"? Others which aren't explicitly highlighted would also be acceptable. - Enough! 20 Protesters Who Changed America - Gays and Mental Health: Fighting Depression, Saying No to Suicide - I am Martin Luther King, Jr. - Peaceful Fights for Equal Rights - Tomorrow Will…

I did not communicate my point well enough. I'm sure a lot of these "bans" are not well justified, and good arguments can be found against them. Why use something weak like "we are the good guys and the ends justify the means"?

Re: 1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

#53

Post by JumpCrisscross »

xyzzyz wrote: post #50
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whole “banning” narrative is simply describing removal of books from libraries through democratic instead of bureaucratic process Put another way, through a political versus administrative process. That's rightfully problematic. It's not a ban, but we purposely ring-fence libraries from politics.

I do not believe there is any sort of “ring fence” between schools and politics. The entire point of public school boards and elections thereto is to enable voters to exercise the political control over the branch of government that is providing public educational service. If your argument indeed is that the public schools should be fully and wholly independently ran by nonelected bureaucrats entirely as they please,…

> point of public school boards and elections thereto is to enable voters to exercise the political control over the branch of government that is providing public education

Fair enough. Perhaps the answer is school libraries are Constitutionally problematic–we can call them book bazaars and acknowledge that minors under state custody do not have the right to a library.

Politicians removing books from libraries is a clear boundary. These aren't books being put in front of students as part of their curriculum. They aren't even in classrooms. They're in a library, and when we normalize plucking books from school libraries we normalize doing that at public libraries, where there are also nutters levying the same arguments to get books pulled.

Re: 1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

#54

Post by paulddraper »

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #19
npstr wrote: post #7

> it’s important to note that they are to the end of positive social change The end does not justify the means. Name me one single objectively bad political movement which internally thought of themselves as bad or negative. There isn't one. They all claim and for the largest part of their membership believe to serve the greater good. Therefore I find this argument of the author extremely weak. Surely they can come u…

To move away from sophistry and towards some concrete understanding, which of the sample books they provided for that blurb would you say is "true negative"? Others which aren't explicitly highlighted would also be acceptable. - Enough! 20 Protesters Who Changed America - Gays and Mental Health: Fighting Depression, Saying No to Suicide - I am Martin Luther King, Jr. - Peaceful Fights for Equal Rights - Tomorrow Will…

[dead]

Re: 1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

#55

Post by constantcrying »

arcticbull wrote: post #51
constantcrying wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These are ideological decisions made by partisans with the goal being to shape the corpus of thinking of youth. You support neo-nazi propaganda not being in school libraries, so certainly you too believe that it is the duty of school libraries to curate the content. It is just incredibly dishonest to pretend that you are upset at this for any reason other than that you want these particular books available to childr…

> It is just incredibly dishonest to pretend that you are upset at this for any reason other than that you want these particular books available to children, which is exactly as partisan as demanding their absence. That's not possible, as, and this is true, I didn't go through the list. I suggest that you may be assuming a lot about me.

You do not support the removal of these books.

My claim is that: - Everybody supports the removal of certain books - Demanding the exclusion or demanding the inclusion are both partisan issues. Neither is a politically neutral stance.

This suggests that this is not a free speech issue at all, but a political issue with two sides wanting/not wanting children to read particular books.

Re: 1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

#56

Post by JumpCrisscross »

doingmaths wrote: post #26
jiveturkey42 wrote: post #6

"Banned in the United States" does not mean the same thing as "Removed from Middle School Libraries"

"Books banned in the US" has two correct readings (regarding banned books by governments): 1) "Books that were banned, somewhere within the US" 2) "Books that were banned, across the US" In this case, at the behest of state and municipal governments, there are books that fit into reading one.

This is an impractical delineation. If any unit of government is treating any book as contraband, everyone be worried.

The actual levels are books being:

1) removed from classroom curriculum;

2) removed from a school library;

3) confiscated from students at school;

4) removed from a public library; and

5) confiscated from adults anywhere.

One seems unproblematic in general. Five is universally alarming. Two is largely what is being discussed, though it has a habit of sliding into Four. Three is a strange one; I haven't thought about it.

Re: 1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

#57

Post by [deleted] »

constantcrying wrote: post #44
arcticbull wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, seems pretty similar to me. Especially when the article itself identifies only 1.6% of the books as having a 17+ rating. [edit] Anyone who believes in freedom of expression and the first amendment should recognize this as a negative step, and a clear thin-edge issue. These are ideological decisions made by partisans with the goal being to shape the corpus of thinking of youth. "Will someone think of the children"…

>These are ideological decisions made by partisans with the goal being to shape the corpus of thinking of youth. You support neo-nazi propaganda not being in school libraries, so certainly you too believe that it is the duty of school libraries to curate the content. It is just incredibly dishonest to pretend that you are upset at this for any reason other than that you want these particular books available to childr…

[deleted]

Re: 1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

#58

Post by femiagbabiaka »

npstr wrote: post #52
femiagbabiaka wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To move away from sophistry and towards some concrete understanding, which of the sample books they provided for that blurb would you say is "true negative"? Others which aren't explicitly highlighted would also be acceptable. - Enough! 20 Protesters Who Changed America - Gays and Mental Health: Fighting Depression, Saying No to Suicide - I am Martin Luther King, Jr. - Peaceful Fights for Equal Rights - Tomorrow Will…

I did not communicate my point well enough. I'm sure a lot of these "bans" are not well justified, and good arguments can be found against them. Why use something weak like "we are the good guys and the ends justify the means"?

I see, I misunderstood the point you were making, apologies. I agree, I think that's one of the weaker points of the article. The data itself makes a much stronger case.

Re: 1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

#59

Post by paulddraper »

epgui wrote: post #25
jiveturkey42 wrote: post #6

"Banned in the United States" does not mean the same thing as "Removed from Middle School Libraries"

Perhaps not, but for people in most other countries, the idea that some public schools will just ban whatever they want in an ad hoc fashion amounts to the same thing as saying that it’s the government doing it. From an international-vs-US perspective, education being state-run or locally-governed is really more of a technicality than anything, because education policy is largely a national concern. In many (or most?…

> public schools will just ban whatever they want in an ad hoc fashion amounts to the same thing as saying that it’s the government doing it.

There's a huge difference between "we're not going to stock this in the school library" and people not being allowed to read it.

> education policy is largely a national concern

Education is entirely controlled by the states, except that federal funding comes with some strings attached.

Re: 1,626 Books Were Banned Across America Last Year We Reviewed All of Them

#60

Post by paulddraper »

arcticbull wrote: post #11
jiveturkey42 wrote: post #6

"Banned in the United States" does not mean the same thing as "Removed from Middle School Libraries"

Hm, seems pretty similar to me. Especially when the article itself identifies only 1.6% of the books as having a 17+ rating. [edit] Anyone who believes in freedom of expression and the first amendment should recognize this as a negative step, and a clear thin-edge issue. These are ideological decisions made by partisans with the goal being to shape the corpus of thinking of youth. "Will someone think of the children"…

> Especially when the article itself identifies only 1.6% of the books as having a 17+ rating.

You presume those ratings mean something.

"Getting It: A Guide to Hot, Healthy Hookups and Shame-Free Sex. An empowering guide to casual sex and hooking up from sex educator and Girl Sex 101 author Allison Moon."

I'm sure that's entirely age appropriate for my 13-year-old daughter to be reading from the high-school library.

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