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3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

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Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#51

Post by feifan »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #5

> Financial research firm CreditSights estimates that 3M could ultimately be on the hook for nationwide PFAS cleanup costs of up to $142.7 billion. That’s almost triple the company’s $53 billion market capitalization, and that’s before any personal injury claims and other lawsuits. What does this actually mean? It's just showing off a big number without giving any real context. 3M is the only manufacturer of tons of…

I read that sentence as saying someone came up with a cost estimate of $142.7b to clean up everything, and then there's a comparison to 3M's $53b market cap for scale/comparison.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#52

Post by Jeff_Brown »

BSEdlMMldESB wrote: post #28
enraged_camel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> disbanding this corporation doesn't undo decades of pollution either. Yes, but it prevents them from harming the public like this in the future, and also serves as a very strong deterrent for others.

or mabye we should be more honest and consider that maybe this is a way for the USA government to fill its coffers back up? (rapping on another comment saying that there's a chance this is a way for the USA government to sell the 'manufacture capacity' that 3M is to other "greener" owners) now that I type this out, I realize that this is perfectly consistent with the behavior of empires. the realization that the alle…

Ther is a danger of confusing cynicism with honesty.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#53

Post by stickyricky »

Sytten wrote: post #14
pcurve wrote: post #9

The chemicals in question are of type PFAS and believe it or not, they're still legal to use today, though they're being phased out and banned in a few years. The problem is 3M scientists have know toxicity to human and have withheld the information to the public and regulators. Since 1970s.

They are used in all kinds of products that I personaly use everyday from pans to dental floss. And the replacements are not better, they just dont have studies yet that prove they are toxic...

I hope steel pans aren't on that list. I prefer them to non-stick and I'm under the assumption that they're healthier than non-stick pans.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#54

Post by dylan604 »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #40
bastard_op wrote: post #19

So what, they'll pay a few million (even few billion) fine, and go back to doing it anyways. Having grown up as part of the "Maryvale Cancer Cluster" in Arizona in the 70's with DuPont dumping fluorine and other bad things into the well water and giving most of my family leukemia, cancer, and who knows what else. Class action ensued, DuPont lawyers fought it for 30 years, end of the day my dad got a check for $200 do…

I'm always amazed that in cases like this nobody gets crazy and try to get justice themselves. There are so many guns in the US, and we hear about rogue snipers and school shooters, but never about one guy that decided a CEO should pay for his bad deeds in blood. Maybe it shows that the average human being is quite stable and peaceful?

In certain circles this might be considered a call for action by a lone wolf. Not saying that this is one of those circles.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#55

Post by hgsgm »

pcurve wrote: post #9

The chemicals in question are of type PFAS and believe it or not, they're still legal to use today, though they're being phased out and banned in a few years. The problem is 3M scientists have know toxicity to human and have withheld the information to the public and regulators. Since 1970s.

Requiring a business to report what it knows, but not requiring it to actually know in the first place, is a mess of enforcement challenge.

Instead, government should require disclosure of new chemicals, tax the chemical industry (or use general fund), and perform its own studies on new chemicals.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#56

Post by Jeff_Brown »

kmod wrote: post #23
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #5

> Financial research firm CreditSights estimates that 3M could ultimately be on the hook for nationwide PFAS cleanup costs of up to $142.7 billion. That’s almost triple the company’s $53 billion market capitalization, and that’s before any personal injury claims and other lawsuits. What does this actually mean? It's just showing off a big number without giving any real context. 3M is the only manufacturer of tons of…

Assuming those numbers are realized it would mean bankruptcy, essentially, and questions like this are pretty standard and well-thought-about there. IANAL but I think this is why Chapter 11 bankruptcy exists (where you keep the company going because that's valuable) vs Chapter 7 (where you liquidate it). I think the Purdue bankruptcy is similar where the company is somewhat being handed over to the people that were h…

Would it? If they can earn the value of their liabilities in three years, why not just do that?1

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#57

Post by njanirudh »

mrguyorama wrote: post #30
jackmott42 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't to undo the past, it is to make it clear to other companies that if they lie about safety they will face an existential threat too. Who are you people who feel compelled to defend mega corporations that screw people over? What is your psychology? What do you value in life? My goodness.

There are millions of people all over the earth that genuinely believe "might makes right", or "greed is good", or "capitalism inherently results in meritocratic and technocratic allocation of resources so nothing that happens under capitalism can possibly be bad". That's not even the least liberal worldviews widely held. Love thy neighbor and the golden rule and accountability are not universal

I would say that billions of people believe that "might makes right".

Its been seen across the centuries and countries alike. Colonialism, MegaCorps, Hague Invasion Act and countless examples that prove that morals matter very less in the long run.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#58

Post by dylan604 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #32
batmenace wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if the company goes bankrupt, theoretically other companies can buy e.g. 3M's patents / processes / subsidiaries and continue their production. THe company isn't unprofitable, so it would be sold off in parts and the proceeds of the sale (theoretically) would go towards settling lawsuits.

or it might just be sold as a whole to another company, or continue to exist post bankruptcy

Unlikely though. Nobody would want to buy the company whole as that would include all of this liability. Selling of the individual parts to raise funds for paying the debts of the unsold parts of the business entering bankruptcy seems like the only way to go

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#59

Post by hgsgm »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #40
bastard_op wrote: post #19

So what, they'll pay a few million (even few billion) fine, and go back to doing it anyways. Having grown up as part of the "Maryvale Cancer Cluster" in Arizona in the 70's with DuPont dumping fluorine and other bad things into the well water and giving most of my family leukemia, cancer, and who knows what else. Class action ensued, DuPont lawyers fought it for 30 years, end of the day my dad got a check for $200 do…

I'm always amazed that in cases like this nobody gets crazy and try to get justice themselves. There are so many guns in the US, and we hear about rogue snipers and school shooters, but never about one guy that decided a CEO should pay for his bad deeds in blood. Maybe it shows that the average human being is quite stable and peaceful?

CEO has a $million+ security detail. What does your kindergartener have?

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#60

Post by MagicMoonlight »

pcurve wrote: post #9

The chemicals in question are of type PFAS and believe it or not, they're still legal to use today, though they're being phased out and banned in a few years. The problem is 3M scientists have know toxicity to human and have withheld the information to the public and regulators. Since 1970s.

All those paper replacements for things like straws are coated with them :)
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