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CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

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Re: CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

#51

Post by boomboomsubban »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #8

I stopped reading when the author categorized "prisoners of war being told to read confessions over Chinese propaganda radio" as "testifying publicly", almost at the start of the piece: > It was the propaganda version of an incendiary bomb. In 1952 U.S. Air Force and Marine flyers, shot down during the Korean War, testified publicly that they had been ordered to drop biological weapons (BW) on China and North Korea.…

>it strongly implies that they testified, after the war, about dropping biological weapons.

It directly says it happened in 1952, and links to a newspaper clearly saying the 'confession' was made by captured American officers. How does it imply the exact opposite of what it says?

Re: CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

#52

Post by bluepizza »

retrac wrote: post #46
the-dude wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a video I stumbled across on YT : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMq-fApmzts This guy alleges that the US were 'kind' on Japan (only light tribunal?) after the war because they wanted to acquire the bio-warfare knowledge of the Japanese. And the Japanese tested bio-bombs.

This is a constantly changing area of history, so we're on shaky ground. The diaries of the chamberlain to Hirohito were only published a couple years ago, for example. They implicate the emperor deeply in war-time decisions in a way that contradicts the post-war narrative of a hapless well-meaning buffoon misled by his underlings. I suspect the real reason is close to the usually accepted story, though. Millions of…

> quite opaque as to his decision-making

Genuine question: I thought it was well understood that his decision making was guided by a fear of Russian expansion, and that conservative measures (such as keeping the Emperor in place and several important politicians) were aimed at quickly reestablishing the country to avoid communist impetus from arising. Is this not the case?

Re: CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

#53

Post by bluepizza »

hackerlight wrote: post #25
the-dude wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a video I stumbled across on YT : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMq-fApmzts This guy alleges that the US were 'kind' on Japan (only light tribunal?) after the war because they wanted to acquire the bio-warfare knowledge of the Japanese. And the Japanese tested bio-bombs.

That doesn't make sense. The US won and Japan lost, the US could have taken whatever information they wanted to.

It does make a lot of sense. In the most basic terms, almost no American spoke Japanese, let alone at a scientific level. Collaboration would be at the essence.

But I think the greater point that you are missing is that you can't walk over a country of 150 million people and achieve total power. Without large doses of good will, collaboration, and soft power, resistance gets in the way of every single goal an occupation has.

Re: CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

#54

Post by bluepizza »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #13
the-dude wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a video I stumbled across on YT : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMq-fApmzts This guy alleges that the US were 'kind' on Japan (only light tribunal?) after the war because they wanted to acquire the bio-warfare knowledge of the Japanese. And the Japanese tested bio-bombs.

The US had invaded Japan, they did not need to be "nice" to acquire any of Japan's knowledge. My understanding is that the US were worried about the communists and Japan's stability in general and decided not to unduly rock the boat.

This is 1945, before the decades long alliance and best friendship between US and Japan, before Internet, computers, and most electronics. Americans can't even read the signposts in the streets, let alone find and interpret the results of extremely secret operations.

Re: CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

#55

Post by retrac »

bluepizza wrote: post #52
retrac wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a constantly changing area of history, so we're on shaky ground. The diaries of the chamberlain to Hirohito were only published a couple years ago, for example. They implicate the emperor deeply in war-time decisions in a way that contradicts the post-war narrative of a hapless well-meaning buffoon misled by his underlings. I suspect the real reason is close to the usually accepted story, though. Millions of…

> quite opaque as to his decision-making Genuine question: I thought it was well understood that his decision making was guided by a fear of Russian expansion, and that conservative measures (such as keeping the Emperor in place and several important politicians) were aimed at quickly reestablishing the country to avoid communist impetus from arising. Is this not the case?

Yes, you have it right. Japan collapsing politically would invite Soviet "aid" in the occupation of Japan. A partition like Germany was to be avoided. I just meant that you won't find anything from MacArthur clearly explaining it that way, as his retconned history, which became the accepted history, had a largely blameless imperial institution, so no justificatiom for its retention was really necessary.

Re: CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

#56

Post by rvba »

GartzenDeHaes wrote: post #47

Biological weapons are not used by the US due to practicality, not morality. 1. It's difficult to manufacture biological agents in large quantities. 2. It's hard to store biological agents for long periods of time, since living things tend to die. 3. It's hard to disperse biological agents over a large area. Spray tanks require flying at low altitude at slow speeds, or multiple deployments at high speeds. Munitions w…

GB is sarin. What is that GB-2?

Cannot find much information about anything like that via google.

Re: CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

#57

Post by GartzenDeHaes »

rvba wrote: post #56
GartzenDeHaes wrote: post #47

Biological weapons are not used by the US due to practicality, not morality. 1. It's difficult to manufacture biological agents in large quantities. 2. It's hard to store biological agents for long periods of time, since living things tend to die. 3. It's hard to disperse biological agents over a large area. Spray tanks require flying at low altitude at slow speeds, or multiple deployments at high speeds. Munitions w…

GB is sarin. What is that GB-2? Cannot find much information about anything like that via google.

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/831901-overview

"Known binary agents include the following: GB binary (sarin, GB2): DF is located in 1 canister, while OPA is in a second canister. The isopropyl amine binds to the hydrogen fluoride generated during the chemical reaction. After deployment of the weapon, the 2 canisters rupture and the chemical mixture produces GB."

Re: CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

#58

Post by MichaelZuo »

GartzenDeHaes wrote: post #47

Biological weapons are not used by the US due to practicality, not morality. 1. It's difficult to manufacture biological agents in large quantities. 2. It's hard to store biological agents for long periods of time, since living things tend to die. 3. It's hard to disperse biological agents over a large area. Spray tanks require flying at low altitude at slow speeds, or multiple deployments at high speeds. Munitions w…

If the evidence presented in this article are true, then it's likely because of the 'test trial' usages in the Korean War that it was confirmed to be impractical.

Plus, considering there's substantial evidence that McArthur was close to nuking Manchuria, it seems likely he would have been willing to try something slightly less escalatory and much easier to hide and plausibly deny.

Re: CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

#59

Post by anigbrowl »

phpisthebest wrote: post #32

You can not have "Government by the people, for the people" when you allow some people to keep secrets from other people under the guise of "national security" Self governance is incompatible with states secrets, and only leads to abuse, corruption, and tyranny. History is full of known abuses, and for every known abuse there is the potential for LOTS of unknown abuse. One can say "well congress will hold them accoun…

Some level of secrecy for purely operational matters is natural. You don't want to give out the keys to your secure communications system or publish your military dispositions in real time.

On the other hand, the existence of programs like this cannot and should not be granted a veil of secrecy. It's a sad irony that the US presents itself as the champion of a rules-based international order, human rights etc., while refusing to submit itself to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court or sign any treaty that might be even slightly disadvantageous.

Re: CIA, MKUltra, and the cover-up of U.S. germ warfare in the Korean war (2022)

#60

Post by [deleted] »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #58
GartzenDeHaes wrote: post #47

Biological weapons are not used by the US due to practicality, not morality. 1. It's difficult to manufacture biological agents in large quantities. 2. It's hard to store biological agents for long periods of time, since living things tend to die. 3. It's hard to disperse biological agents over a large area. Spray tanks require flying at low altitude at slow speeds, or multiple deployments at high speeds. Munitions w…

If the evidence presented in this article are true, then it's likely because of the 'test trial' usages in the Korean War that it was confirmed to be impractical. Plus, considering there's substantial evidence that McArthur was close to nuking Manchuria, it seems likely he would have been willing to try something slightly less escalatory and much easier to hide and plausibly deny.

[deleted]
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