50% of US engineering students drop out - Why? • Hacker News Board

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#51

Post by khafra » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 1:03 PM UTC

zzzmarcus wrote: post #24

timr wrote: post #3

Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better? Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs? Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives? Because you'll run smack in…

On the other hand, as an engineer you can: -Work for a big company, a small company or just work for yourself. -Work from anywhere in the world you can take a laptop and an internet connection -Use free tools to create a product you can duplicate (and sell) infinitely -Be a part of an extremely active and passionate community that is on the cutting edge of the industry that is driving the global economy Where else ar…

The only self-employed engineer I know is a mechanical engineer who's living on food stamps, trying to get enough interest in converting vehicles to passive cooling, which seems to be her personal calling, to pay the bills.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#52

Post by elecengin » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 1:16 PM UTC

rsheridan6 wrote: post #5

Any recent engineering grads here who can tell us if there really is a shortage? If you guys are getting multiple job offers with hiring bonuses, there is. If not, there isn't.

As class of 2005 grad (who incidentally goes to Olin), I have multiple offers w/ signing bonuses.

Whether this is a sign of a shortage, I am not sure.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#53

Post by gaius » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 1:20 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #42

timr wrote: post #3

Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better? Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs? Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives? Because you'll run smack in…

Apparently you've identified a major inefficiency in the labor market. You ought to be able to make a killing by founding a company to compete against those run by frat-boy MBAs and employing the talented engineers your competitors have discarded.

Ermm, that is what most startups are intended to do.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#54

Post by elecengin » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 1:22 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #32

The Olin program looks pretty similar to what Harvey Mudd College has been doing for decades.

You are right - there are many similarities. In fact, our Dean of Faculty came from Harvey Mudd. I think that Olin has a bit more freedom to innovate, though, given it's young age (fourth graduating class this year). There is a joke around campus that no class has ever been the same for two years - in almost every case, there are significant overhauls that result from student feedback. While this makes things tumultuous (and of course there is no guarantee that change is good), it is clear that the profs are not willing to settle on something that is just "good" or "acceptable". Did you get this feeling at HMC?

I can't really make a more detailed comparison without more information about what aspects of Harvey Mudd you find similar.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#55

Post by yummyfajitas » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 1:25 PM UTC

kalvin wrote: post #16

lhorn wrote: post #4

That's because our system somehow rewards real estate speculators, mortgage brokers, middle management, lawyers and healthcare professionals way more than it rewards engineers. I don't really know why this is happening, but I am sure you all have met a few MBA types who have "the vision" and looking for "just" a code monkey to build their fortune. This is also the reason why GE/Ford/Chrysler continued building shit f…

That's funny, it's a routine complaint at Stanford that all the campus job fairs are filled with companies recruiting engineers and nobody else. :p Our system also rewards engineers way more than teachers, graduates who go into public service, and-- at graduation time, at least-- anyone with a humanities degree. I'd worry about fixing compensation for teachers before rewarding engineers... Google is an engineering fi…

Compensation for teachers is fantastic, as long as you compare it properly to compensation for other workers.

To begin with, multiply by (12 months worked by others)/(9 months worked by teachers).

Then add in the value of the state health plan, usually fantastic.

Then add in the real value of a defined benefit pension plan (chances are you only get a defined contribution plan) available in most states.

Then add in the value of tenure, which I'll tentatively estimate as effectively doubling the salary (1).

All that is actually pretty good for a group of people who tend to come from the bottom of the barrel cognitively (http://www.ncsu.edu/chass/philo/GRE%20Scores%20by%20Intended...).

The idea that teachers are underpaid is a myth propagated by teachers unions and their lackeys in the media.

(1) Many tenured professors could easily double their salary by quitting, but choose not to.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#56

Post by Alex3917 » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 1:27 PM UTC

kalvin wrote: post #12

Alex3917 wrote: post #2

Incidentally, the National Science Foundation and the National Council for Teachers of Mathematics describe the Obama's education plan as abysmally bad. Specifically the NSF and NCTM are very much against the AP curriculum, which Obama wants to expand by 50% over the next few years. I think the exact quote is that AP science/math courses represent "the worst kind of pedagogy" or something like that.

I call bullshit-- 1) Not a single source that can be googled. 2) The NSF gave the College Board 1.8 million two years ago to fund AP science courses: http://www.collegeboard.com/press/releases/51572.html 3) It's highly unlikely that either organization, which have broader educational concerns than AP curriculum, would ever release a statement condemning either political candidate.

1) Read books.

2) The source you linked to supports my claim, if you actually read it.

3) They didn't release a statement condemning Obama, but they've been criticizing the AP curriculum since the 90s. (And Obama's plan is to increase the number of students taking the AP.) I'm sure they'd never actually criticize Obama himself, at least not yet, since they will depend on him for lots of other stuff.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#57

Post by elecengin » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 1:48 PM UTC

debt wrote: post #23

Because engineering is difficult.

I don't agree that difficulty is the reason for high dropout rates. Olin has long been lauded for it's almost zero dropout rate, but I will not use that to make my point since we have a very small sample size (300 people) and we are relatively selective, and therefore not representative of the average US engineering student.

Instead, lets look at ASU in this study: http://www.foundationcoalition.org/publications/journalpaper...

The study found that the top 5 reasons (as summarized on page 3) are:

1) reasons for choice of SME [Science, Math, Engineering] proved inappropriate

2) poor teaching by SME faculty

3) inadequate advising or help with academic problems

4) non-SME major offers better education/more interest

5) lack/loss of interest in SME ("turned off science")

Reasons 2, 3, 4 and 5 are directly related to failures of the institution. Sure, there are students who cannot comprehend the coursework, but those are few and far between compared to the numbers who simply do not receive the support necessary for them to succeed.

This study, along with many others, points to a common trend: we blame the student for being incompetent or unmotivated, instead of blaming the institution for not providing them the necessary help (that they are paying tens of thousands for).

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#58

Post by geebee » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 2:35 PM UTC

Look like I'm showing up late to this discussion.

I'll just comment on the "stapling a green card to every engineering degree awarded to a foreign national idea."

I have no doubt this would increase the incentives for foreigners to study engineering in the US, but if we only do this in engineering and not in medicine, law, business, art, humanities, etc... well then wouldn't we create an incentive for US citizens to avoid engineering degrees and instead go into areas that are insulated from foreign competition? It seems that this has already happened to some extent. If one of our goals as a nation is to increase the interest of our young people in science and engineering, we should at least consider the effect a program like this on their career choices, shouldn't we?

I'm not saying there's no room for debate on this subject, but I'm eternally amazed that pundits almost never consider this possibility when making this recommendation.

(BTW, in "the world is flat", Friedman suggested doing this for all doctoral degrees, not just engineering...)

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#59

Post by rbanffy » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 2:40 PM UTC

The article fails to acknowledge that MIT and Olin have 2% drop-out rates because they are f*ng hard to get in in the first place.

The drop-out rate is directly proportional on how easy it is to enroll in a hard program.

The school I graduated from, FEI (in Brazil), has a very high drop-out rate in the first semester - about 50% on my freshman year, mostly due to calculus and physics. It's also regarded as a top private school in its field.

So, that's why those teachers are not being fired - because students pay for their first semester whether or not they stick around for the second one.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#60

Post by yummyfajitas » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 2:49 PM UTC

elecengin wrote: post #57

debt wrote: post #23

Because engineering is difficult.

I don't agree that difficulty is the reason for high dropout rates. Olin has long been lauded for it's almost zero dropout rate, but I will not use that to make my point since we have a very small sample size (300 people) and we are relatively selective, and therefore not representative of the average US engineering student. Instead, lets look at ASU in this study: http://www.foundationcoalition.org/publications/jour…

Reasons (4) and (5) are not necessarily a failure of the institution. If a student likes dinosaur bones more than ODEs after being exposed to both, how is that a failure at all? Students may have an incorrect idea of either science or their personal preferences, and college may correct these views. That's a good thing.

Another fact to note: I don't see "I'm not smart/hardworking enough to be an engineer" as even an option. It would be interesting to know what fraction of students flunked out or were barely able to avoid this fate.

Plus, I'm highly suspicious of the quality of this study. The authors appear to be morons:

...only the difference on the seventh ranked reason... was statistically significant (p=.019). ... However, another [statistically insignificant] difference worth noting is...