Live data from Hacker News

Google Photos AI still can't label gorillas after racist errors

theregister.com

51–60 of 74 posts

Re: Google Photos AI still can't label gorillas after racist errors

#51

I agree that blocking the feature is the smartest thing to do if people are going to get offended. It's idiotic to call it "racist", it's a shitty classifier, and it's incredibly irresponsible (and probably racist) as well as dismissive of actual racism to pretend that's racist. At the same time, I'm surprised they can't get this classifier to work. It doesn't seem like a very challenging problem (I'd consider myself…

There are efforts to make more accurate classifiers (2021), which seems to come down to avoiding dataset biases, but for them to work, they essentially have to group humans into racial subsets (of which 'gorilla' and 'chimpanzee' might be a discrete entity, which is evolutionarily interesting at least, as humans/chimps/gorillas are more closely related than to each other relative any outgroup).

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-7390/9/2/195

> "Studies have shown that due to the distribution of ethnicity/race in training datasets, biometric algorithms suffer from “cross race effect”—their performance is better on subjects closer to the “country of origin” of the algorithm."

However, these classifiers are also problematic as racial identification is a bit thorny politically. It's comparable to gender identification classifiers in the context of trans politics (as, regardless of personal identification, there are some classifier-accessible differences between the vast majority of female and male faces, although I suppose there's an androgenous middle ground).

To go out on a limb a little, imagine an 'Aryan vs. Jewish' classifier - who wants to be associated with that? Lots of downsides for any commercial outfit, certainly, and few upsides.

Re: Google Photos AI still can't label gorillas after racist errors

#52

I agree that blocking the feature is the smartest thing to do if people are going to get offended. It's idiotic to call it "racist", it's a shitty classifier, and it's incredibly irresponsible (and probably racist) as well as dismissive of actual racism to pretend that's racist. At the same time, I'm surprised they can't get this classifier to work. It doesn't seem like a very challenging problem (I'd consider myself…

I think it's idiotic and racist to dismiss people offense of being labeled as an animal with a long history of being used as derogatory racial insult

Re: Google Photos AI still can't label gorillas after racist errors

#54
Both gorillas and black people have dark skin and reasonably flat features.

The lack of contrast can make things hard the evaluate, especially if you're dealing with SDR content in a format that struggles to accurately encode darker colours.

It's not racism, it's a lack of information to the evaluator and a failure of communication by the company.

If they actually put out a statement regarding the technical issues around the problem, rather than trying to bury it in order to minimise the backlash, we could be having some far more reasonable and level headed discussions.

Re: Google Photos AI still can't label gorillas after racist errors

#56
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I don’t think the actual act of the program bugging is racist is I imagine it’s just some stupid rule based on shape (primates have a similar shape) and skin color and isn’t smart enough to distinguish humans vs gorillas vs Gumby toys with black/grey skin closer to a gorilla. I think intent is important for labeling something racist and a function doesn’t have intent. And it doesn’t seem like the programme…

The reason I don’t think the actual act of the program bugging is racist is I imagine it’s just some stupid rule based on shape (primates have a similar shape) and skin color and isn’t smart enough to distinguish humans vs gorillas vs Gumby toys with black/grey skin closer to a gorilla. But this is AI -- so the stupid rule is not pre-programmed, but rather curve-fit to the data (uh, "learned"). So ultimately it's a m…

I was generalizing the bug but my basis is an assumption that the programmer didn’t make some conscious or unconscious racist decision, but just something basic like “match shapes and colors” and the training data had a bunch of gorillas for one reason or another.

I think this gets fixed by better training data and more pictures of really dark skinned people. So with more supervised labels of dark skinned people to people, properly so the matching doesn’t think people are closer to gorillas.

Comically/sadly, we’ll know we get closer to fixing the training sets to be more inclusive when google starts labeling gorillas as people.

I think there are some systemic reasons why there aren’t more diverse populations in training data. And those are more society issues than AI issues (ie, rich people are more represented, rich people are certain races, therefore races are more represented).

And finally, I’ve worked in software that people just test what they are and know so I’ve seen so many test plans that are too simple and only test the programmers dob and address. This doesn’t mean racist because all the programmers are Asian males. It just means the quality review wasn’t thorough enough to include proper test conditions.

I might be inappropriately conflating software bugs from different areas but this is what makes me think “stupidity or weakness more likely than racism.”

Re: Google Photos AI still can't label gorillas after racist errors

#57

This is a valuable lesson in what AI can do for society: act as a mirror to show us systemic biases that exist that people try to pretend don't exist. I think most here would understand systemic bias if reflected in a distributed system. Imagine a classifier where, through no explicit intent of the designer of the classifier, always said that some user login was malicious or some binary was malware or the like, even…

> the classifier is just reflecting that because it was trained on public data

Are you suggesting that the cause here is that there are a lot of racist images on the internet visually depicting black people as gorillas?

I assume that is not the understanding of most people here who are questioning what makes this racist, because if that is indeed the cause then I agree it is obviously racist.

Is it the cause though? I would be interested to see some evidence or rationale, because I don’t think I have ever seen an image like this outside of perhaps a handful of very old hand drawn propaganda images (which presumably would not affect the classifier much due to being overwhelmed by the vast number of images of real people and real gorillas).

Re: Google Photos AI still can't label gorillas after racist errors

#58

I think I could write a classifier that would accurately separate out gorillas and humans in a weekend with a dataset. But I guess as its pointed out here, there's no upside to getting it right and massive downside to getting it wrong

I suspect the challenge is not in getting that particular feature to work in isolation (which I agree seems trivial). But rather, in getting it to work in a way that integrates with the 10,000 other decision boundary problems that a large-scale AI system needs to be able to navigate.

That is to say: not so challenging that they couldn't have got wrapped by now, if they cared enough to do so. But not necessarily trivial, either.

Re: Google Photos AI still can't label gorillas after racist errors

#59

I agree that blocking the feature is the smartest thing to do if people are going to get offended. It's idiotic to call it "racist", it's a shitty classifier, and it's incredibly irresponsible (and probably racist) as well as dismissive of actual racism to pretend that's racist. At the same time, I'm surprised they can't get this classifier to work. It doesn't seem like a very challenging problem (I'd consider myself…

> it's incredibly irresponsible (and probably racist) as well as dismissive of actual racism to pretend that's racist.

Because of the entanglement of people who harbor individual racial animus and the systemic factors that lead to disparate outcomes for people of different races we are in a bad situation vis-a-vie language, but I think this isn't quite right.

I agree there's no reason to believe the engineers involved had any prejudice (i.e. individualized animus against non-white people). It's the result of under-testing or corner cases or whatever. However, the system is definitely racist.

It's racist in the sense that it has an adverse impact on people of different races (white people will not be mis-detected as gorillas) and its racist in the sense that there must have been racial imbalances in development (one struggles to imagine this being launched if all humans were being detected as gorillas for instance). This doesn't require any prejudice on the part of the people making it - it's just a fact that we can observe that it has disparate racial impacts and that choices in its development have led to a product that is unevenly useful to people of different races. It's also clear because facial recognition systems perform worse across all measures on people with darker skin (not just on this metric) - it's not like the accuracy rate is the same but the mistakes are different.

Also, of course, yes - people will point out that different skin tones interact differently with photographic technology and algorithm designers are fighting an up hill battle. It's true! We have historically been good at solving the challenges of capturing images of light skinned people better than dark skinned ones. That's racist too! It's hard to not build a racist system when your tools already have racial bias. Again - pointing out the racial bias in this system is not an indictment of the people who built it. It's an indictment of the world it emerged out of and a bookmark to come back to when you see people using the outputs of the system.

Re: Google Photos AI still can't label gorillas after racist errors

#60
even if there's a perfectly reasonable & rational explanation for why classifiers like this make misclassifications like this, the fact that this sort of misclassification continues to be present is a widely used public facing model is racist. furthermore, attempts to dismiss the above as not being racist because "it's technical in nature" is also racist because it blatantly ignore the harm that comes from continuing to parrot a well know racial caricature
Post reply on HN