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Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

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Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#51

Post by marginalia_nu »

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #28
mindondrugs wrote: post #11

> this salary wouldn't attract strong talent even in medium cost-of-living countries (like portugal/spain). median salary for a developer in Spain is $30,000 a year[1], so 50-80k would easily place them in the upper 10% of the scale. I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. [1] https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...

>I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. Or maybe people everywhere else need to really reflect on how underpaid they are. It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US, so why isn’t more of it ending up in developers’ pockets, where it should go?

> It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US, so why isn’t more of it ending up in developers’ pockets, where it should go?

What you're forgetting is that taxes differ quite a lot from country to country. That, and cost of living is a factor too. If food and housing costs half as much, then even though you're paid less, you're not really poorer for it.

I think many American developers are kind of blind to how absurdly expensive California housing is.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#52

Post by mschuster91 »

nolok wrote: post #32
mindondrugs wrote: post #11

> this salary wouldn't attract strong talent even in medium cost-of-living countries (like portugal/spain). median salary for a developer in Spain is $30,000 a year[1], so 50-80k would easily place them in the upper 10% of the scale. I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. [1] https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...

I don't know this website but for France it says 38k€/year on average. Which means they're not using the total salary but the post employer's taxes. I'm using France for reference, and approximate number for the sake of explanation: for 100€ cost to the company, 40€ is employer's taxes, 20€ is employee's taxes. We call 20+40 = 60 the "gross" salary, and 40 the net salary, we never talk about the 100 when negotiating…

On top of that come Europe's minimum vacation requirement of 4 weeks (although in practice, most are at anything from 24-30 days / 5-6 weeks), the unlimited sick days and numerous national holidays. Also, we have mandatory contributions for pension, social security, healthcare and (in Germany) workplace accident and elderly care insurance.

All of that needs some form of accounting on the employer's side that drives up the gross employment cost.

Or, to put it bluntly, us Europeans tend to see lower take-home amounts on our paystubs for the same gross cost the employer sees on their bank account, but a lot of stuff that you'd have to take care of on your own in the US is covered by that.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#53

Post by shrikant »

gamesbrainiac wrote: post #17
mindondrugs wrote: post #11

> this salary wouldn't attract strong talent even in medium cost-of-living countries (like portugal/spain). median salary for a developer in Spain is $30,000 a year[1], so 50-80k would easily place them in the upper 10% of the scale. I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. [1] https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...

Those figures are wrong to be honest. Most senior folks in Spain don't work for Spanish companies in general; they work for EU companies that pay more. Plenty of senior folks in Spain making $100k+. In Barcelona, you can make north of $70K easy; even for non-senior devs. I agree with OP. The salary is way too low for a senior European developer to consider because taking a US job means that there are no employment pr…

Yeah Spain salaries aren't great for devs even by the UK's standards, but GP's numbers seem way too low.

About 4 years back I didn't bother proceeding with a couple of (well, two) mid-level engineering positions based out of Barcelona because they paid too low (about €55,000) compared to what I could get in the UK for an equivalent role. One of them was for King, who was still raking it in then, and I can't remember the other organisation.

Still less than what my expectations had been calibrated for, but way more than what GP is implying!

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#54

Post by MontyCarloHall »

School-Cotton wrote: post #35
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. Or maybe people everywhere else need to really reflect on how underpaid they are. It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US, so why isn’t more of it ending up in developers’ pockets, where it should go?

The vast majority of countries are neoliberal/capitalist so that’s simply not how it works. Your pay is a function of the market price for your talents, not of how much your boss is making.

So, ironically, in that regard, the US tech labor market is far more socialist than its European counterpart.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#55

Post by danpalmer »

re-thc wrote: post #29
danpalmer wrote: post #9

"Senior" means different things to different people. I've interviewed "senior" engineers who I wouldn't hire into an internship, and I've interviewed regular (non-senior) engineers who are exceptional. It also means different things to different companies. At a startup, a "staff engineer" might just be the best engineer on a team of 5-10, but at a big tech company it means a completely different thing. I've also work…

> At a startup, a "staff engineer" might just be They're clearly wizards that hold a staff. > I've also worked with senior engineers at big tech companies who would be less productive than a new graduate in a 3 person startup. That doesn't sound like the engineers' fault? In reverse would the new graduate be productive in big tech? > "Senior" means different things to different people. It usually just means old.

> > I've also worked with senior engineers at big tech companies who would be less productive than a new graduate in a 3 person startup.

> That doesn't sound like the engineers' fault? In reverse would the new graduate be productive in big tech?

It's no one's fault, it's that different companies need different things and can utilise productivity in different ways.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#56

Post by hef19898 »

felipellrocha wrote: post #41
mindondrugs wrote: post #11

> this salary wouldn't attract strong talent even in medium cost-of-living countries (like portugal/spain). median salary for a developer in Spain is $30,000 a year[1], so 50-80k would easily place them in the upper 10% of the scale. I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. [1] https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...

> I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. This statement makes no sense. We have a much higher cost of living here than in Europe.

SV vs. Berlin? Sure. Kentucky's hinterland vs. Paris? No, you don't.

Fun fact, FAANG salaries in Europe depend on the lovation you are hired at, with differences between, e.g., Munich and Berlin for the same job levels. It is funny, because companiesbreally understood how salaries and cost of living are connected, and still every discussion on HN regarding dev salaries ignores this simple favt and only compares absolute numbers. Heck, mostly there isn't even an agreemt on the measurement baseline (including US benefits, EU common health care, vacation days...).

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#57

Post by myth2018 »

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #28
mindondrugs wrote: post #11

> this salary wouldn't attract strong talent even in medium cost-of-living countries (like portugal/spain). median salary for a developer in Spain is $30,000 a year[1], so 50-80k would easily place them in the upper 10% of the scale. I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. [1] https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...

>I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. Or maybe people everywhere else need to really reflect on how underpaid they are. It’s not like the revenue of tech companies is lower outside of the US, so why isn’t more of it ending up in developers’ pockets, where it should go?

> Or maybe people everywhere else need to really reflect on how underpaid they are.

You must consider currency exchange rates too. In my country, at the current rates, 80k US$/year puts one above many top executives, doctors and other prestigious jobs. Not bad at all for a remote position in software development.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#58

Post by oezi »

rockyj wrote: post #21

Just to add my opinion, 60-80K is an expected decent/common salary for an experienced programmer across EU (UK salaries are higher). Programmer salaries above 100K are very uncommon outside a few companies and US/UK.

Above 100k is uncommon in Europe for most professions.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#59

Post by consp »

GGroen wrote: post #13

I am not so sure. 80K$ a year would be considered high here (even for a senior) and I live in a medium size city in the Netherlands.

In Euros maybe, it's 6k/month with 13th month, it's at higher edge but definitely not top 5%, the 50k would be below senior no matter how you look at 'senior'. In Dollars less than reasonable, especially since you do not want to be payed in foreign money if working remote. It also depends a lot on what kind of experience/education you prefer. If you want highly educated seniors with 'senior' level of experience (as in multiple years to a decade) the higher end matters a lot, NL is famous for underpaying engineers and overpaying managers and the better engineers have noticed.

Though without knowing all secondary stuff it's a wild guess anyway. What you describe in NL usually also benefits pay for pension (usually not included in gross salary specification), some form of mobility or at-home budget, and all other perks considered in-kind pay, maybe a lease-car at a larger company. Maybe that's included here, maybe it's not and that can make up several dozens of percents of pay.

Though "senior" means so little it's hard to judge what is meant by that though it looks like OP is specifying task-specific roles which lower the need for a jack-of-all trades, highly educated, years of experience a bit.

Re: Ask HN: How come YC startups offering <80k$/year?

#60

Post by ProblemFactory »

mindondrugs wrote: post #11

> this salary wouldn't attract strong talent even in medium cost-of-living countries (like portugal/spain). median salary for a developer in Spain is $30,000 a year[1], so 50-80k would easily place them in the upper 10% of the scale. I think americans need to really reflect on how inflated american dev salaries are. [1] https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...

These sort of reports can be very misleading because they are often based surveying local companies competing for employees with other local companies. The salaries are very different when working for example for a local bank, vs. for an international tech company or well-funded international startup.

https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...

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