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Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

arstechnica.com

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Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#51
post #2

Encouraging generic drugs eases the problem a little bit. Right to health care should be in the constitution instead of right to own guns.

There is no individual "right to own guns" in the Constitution. When the second amendment talks about the right of "the people" it means as a collective. It's talking about curtailing the Federal government from restricting states from raising state militias. But we don't have a state militia anymore, it's been replaced by the National Guard. There was no serious jurisprudence to interpret the second amendment as an…

The first amendment also refers to “the right of the people to peaceably assemble.” By your logic, is there no individual right to protest? The fourth amendment refers to “the right of the people to be secure in their persons.” Does that mean that you don’t have an individual right against unreasonable search and seizure?

You’re correct to identify “the people” as the key phrase, and you’re correct that the second amendment is referring to a collective right. But so are the other amendments referring to “the people.” The constitution is talking about a whole society, not individuals. E.g. the fourth amendment guarantees a society where “the people” aren’t subject to unreasonable searches from police. But that collective right also protects the individual. What applies to the collective applies to its individual constituents.

This makes sense in the context of the 2nd amendment: militias were “bring your own firearm.” The collective right was enforced through the individual guarantee. There was no need to interpret the second amendment in the past because it really wasn’t unclear what the framers meant. Some of the key figures in the Supreme court’s recent jurisprudence on the second amendment were prominent liberal academics like Larry Tribe and Akhil Amar. Here is Larry Tribe talking about how he changed his mind on the second amendment once he started seriously researching it: https://hls.harvard.edu/today/why-i-changed-my-mind/ (scroll down).

Your strongest argument is that the second amendment only applies to the federal government, not the states. That’s clearly true, but that’s true of every other amendment as well. The first amendment’s Establishment Clause clearly was intended to prevent the federal government from interfering with established state churches, or creating its own. The “wall of separation” phrasing wasn’t used by the Supreme Court until 1946. (Ironically, it was quoting the individual views of Thomas Jefferson, who also believed we should overthrow the government every couple of decades. With guns that every individual was entitled to bear!)

I’m willing to entertain the view that our whole incorporation doctrine is non-sensical, but that cuts more broadly than I think most gun control advocates would like to go. Moreover, the notion that the 14th amendment was meant to apply the second amendment to states is far better supported than the incorporation of the first amendment. Disarmament of freed slaves was specifically one of the concerns at the time: https://www.encounterbooks.com/features/racist-roots-gun-con...

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#52
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no individual "right to own guns" in the Constitution. When the second amendment talks about the right of "the people" it means as a collective. It's talking about curtailing the Federal government from restricting states from raising state militias. But we don't have a state militia anymore, it's been replaced by the National Guard. There was no serious jurisprudence to interpret the second amendment as an…

The first amendment also refers to “the right of the people to peaceably assemble.” By your logic, is there no individual right to protest? The fourth amendment refers to “the right of the people to be secure in their persons.” Does that mean that you don’t have an individual right against unreasonable search and seizure? You’re correct to identify “the people” as the key phrase, and you’re correct that the second am…

Hot take, I'm not even sure "rights" apply to anything but individual humans.

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#53
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first amendment also refers to “the right of the people to peaceably assemble.” By your logic, is there no individual right to protest? The fourth amendment refers to “the right of the people to be secure in their persons.” Does that mean that you don’t have an individual right against unreasonable search and seizure? You’re correct to identify “the people” as the key phrase, and you’re correct that the second am…

Hot take, I'm not even sure "rights" apply to anything but individual humans.

Don't forget Super PACs! /s

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#54
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting is voluntary. Jury duty places a large burden on many people. I served on a jury and there were people who missed out on work and made $20 per day.

> Voting is voluntary. Exercise of all rights is voluntary. Voting requires someone else’s labor (ballot preparation, vote counting, etc.), which is the attribute that you said makes positive rights impractical. > Jury duty places a large burden on many people. And, yet, trial by jury is a right.

After reading your comments last night, I think there's an argument that some of these these things are process operational constraints on how the state can operate. For example, the state doesn't have to charge someone in court, but if they do they must also provide the option for trial by jury.

I think the construction of if the state does X, it must also do Y sets it apart from a universal positive right.

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the state can refuse to provide a jury trial for a citizen initiated legal action, like a civil suit by declining to hear the case.

I think you could find a similar framing for voting as well.

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#55
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first amendment also refers to “the right of the people to peaceably assemble.” By your logic, is there no individual right to protest? The fourth amendment refers to “the right of the people to be secure in their persons.” Does that mean that you don’t have an individual right against unreasonable search and seizure? You’re correct to identify “the people” as the key phrase, and you’re correct that the second am…

Hot take, I'm not even sure "rights" apply to anything but individual humans.

That's a distinctly 20th century individualistic take. From the Magna Carta to the Constitution, "rights" are primarily collective rights. They structure the relationship between the government and "the people." The First Amendment is not there so individuals can "express themselves." It's to maintain the communication and transparency necessary for democracy to work.

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#58
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take, I'm not even sure "rights" apply to anything but individual humans.

That's a distinctly 20th century individualistic take. From the Magna Carta to the Constitution, "rights" are primarily collective rights. They structure the relationship between the government and "the people." The First Amendment is not there so individuals can "express themselves." It's to maintain the communication and transparency necessary for democracy to work.

Be that as it may. Who or what has the rights described?

Do corporations have a right to assembly what does that even mean?

Or do it's individuals have rights which under some circumstances make it seem like a corporation has rights?

Employees have a right to freedom of speech, so companies can make statements protected by the right to free speech.

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#59
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting is voluntary. Jury duty places a large burden on many people. I served on a jury and there were people who missed out on work and made $20 per day.

> Voting is voluntary. Exercise of all rights is voluntary. Voting requires someone else’s labor (ballot preparation, vote counting, etc.), which is the attribute that you said makes positive rights impractical. > Jury duty places a large burden on many people. And, yet, trial by jury is a right.

Exercise of all rights is voluntary.

Sure, but having a place to live is not voluntary, everyone needs it.

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#60
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great example of why discussing politics on the internet is annoying. People assume others’ positions and yell past each other. Not making healthcare a “right” does not preclude having a government run health care system. Why would it?

Because generally the argument of "it doesn't need to be a right" is coupled with arguing why universal healthcare is bad. Your comment is a great example for how people try to muddy the waters and distract from the issues at stake.

Fwiw, I am strongly pro universal health care, but agree with pfannkuchen’s framing of what a right is. I see it as clarifying position, not a muddying one.

Healthcare requires resources, it doesn’t happen just because everyone agrees upon it. We must structure our society to provide those resources, so all its members can be provided healthcare.

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