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Cargo Cult AI

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Re: Cargo Cult AI

#51
post #48

Okay, but GPT can actually explain its thinking and even conduct simple proofs with rigour equivalent to what one finds at a modern university maths course. The models are just not good enough for harder tasks, time will tell if they become good enough. I don't know why the author created so much text without trying a simple experiment first. Perhaps they lack experience in modern evidence based science.

How do you know it's actually conducting the proofs and not that the proofs and related data were already part of the dataset?

Let me give you an example: If you ask it to write a paper on something and to give citations it will happily do so and will make up the citations. It will link you to websites that don't exist, or papers that are completely wrong. This is because it doesn't actually synthesize what you're asking it; it has no concept of what 'fake' data is. It simply does what you ask. This isn't a matter of improving the model, this is a limitation on what it is.

Re: Cargo Cult AI

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I categorically reject the notion that LMMs (Large Markov Models) can ever be aware or intelligent. Comparing weighted next-word-engines to feeling, thinking, aware beings is insulting.

Are you intentionally echoing that scene from starship troopers where the pundit makes the same claim about 'smart bugs'?

I don't base my ideas on what constitutes humanity, intelligence, or sentience on hundred million dollar fiction.

Re: Cargo Cult AI

#53
post #14

The piece ironically misapplies the term "cargo cult" to mean something irrational, presumably because Levine has seen this work to spurn something in the past. Cargo cult behavior means repeating the ostensible look/feel of something that worked before. Intelligence has been constantly redefined over the years as other animals and then as mechanical means have met the previous standards for intelligence. Intelligenc…

Ignoring what anthropologists might say about our use of "cargo cult" as a derogatory term today, you make me wonder what an AI cargo cult should look like instead.

Is it setting up a Turing Test chamber and leaving a seat open for the AI?

Or trying to breed industrial robots?

Or is it downloading someone else's model and trying to use it as a magic box without any concern for how it was trained nor any real intent to validate its output on your newly chosen domain?

Re: Cargo Cult AI

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are impressed because its black fucking magic my friend.

Pretty sure it's not magic, black fucking or otherwise, just really complex math, large data sets, and very fast computers.

Magic is that which can not be explained. Could you explain GPT-4's results if you saw them a few years ago?

Re: Cargo Cult AI

#55
You can give GPT-4 some data and ask it to make a hypothesis to explain it, give it tools to test the hypothesis, and have it try to establish causation. You can literally do that now quite easily with ChatGPT abilities like plugins and it will prove the premise of the article false.

An interesting contrast can be drawn between this article and a criticism like Yann Lecun's. In that his actually has substance. https://youtu.be/DokLw1tILlw Although he is also wrong about the capabilities of LLMs.

Certainly LLMs are not the end of AI research. They have various types of deficiencies and some missing capabilities that humans have. And are not alive.

But GPT-4 can definitely complete scientific experiments.

Re: Cargo Cult AI

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's an LMM? I've never seen the term. > Comparing weighted next-word-engines to feeling, thinking, aware beings is insulting Why is it reasonable to be so reductionist about e.g. GPT-4 but not be so reductionist about a biological brain? E.g., why can't I say that your brain is nothing but a bunch of biological neurons trained using its input and intialized based on your genetics? It's equally true, and equally mi…

LMM = Large Markov Model. I use that term because models like GPT-4 and friends are for all intents and purposes Markov chains with more data, more compute, some lossy compression, and a bit of nearest neighbor search. Next-word-engines. > why can't I say that your brain is nothing but a bunch of biological neurons trained using its input and intialized based on your genetics? Because we don't think one word at a tim…

GPT is not Markovian; it has state.

Re: Cargo Cult AI

#57
post #36

> Is the ability to think scientifically the defining essence of intelligence? ; Physicist Carl Sagan once wrote that "science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking." This type of thinking requires skeptical rigor and brutal honesty to thoroughly investigate,... I think the key to brutal honesty is the ability to deliver and accept brutal honesty between peers and rivals. This is the skill you f'i…

I couldn't help myself but I think at least GPT-4 gets you:

USER What is principles can be extracted from this saying:

>Is the ability to think scientifically the defining essence of intelligence? ; Physicist Carl Sagan once wrote that "science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking." This type of thinking requires skeptical rigor and brutal honesty to thoroughly investigate,... I think the key to brutal honesty is the ability to deliver and accept brutal honesty between peers and rivals. This is the skill you f'ing idiots seem to be losing, because it hinders hearing the autistic perspectives which are quite useful in science. I dropped the completely meaningless f-bomb not to insult anybody but to test your ability to read the sentence without the most basic of intensifiers, what I like to call the f-italics. https://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html

ASSISTANT 1. The importance of scientific thinking: The saying emphasizes the value of adopting a scientific mindset in understanding and problem-solving.

2. Balance of skepticism and openness: A scientific thinker should be rigorous and skeptical in their analysis but also open to new insights, even when these challenge previously held opinions.

3. Brutal honesty: To engage in a productive scientific discourse, it is essential to be brutally honest, both in terms of providing feedback to others and in accepting any criticism directed at one's own work or ideas.

4. Valuing diversity of perspectives: It is important to consider and respect diverse viewpoints in a scientific discussion, including those that deviate from the norm or that challenge mainstream thinking.

5. Emotional resilience: To thrive in a rigorous and honest intellectual environment, one must develop the ability to remain focused on the message and not be derailed by strong language or perceived slights.

6. Effective communication: Being able to deliver honest feedback or critique in a way that is both clear and constructive is a vital skill, even if it involves using syntactic intensifiers, like the f-bomb, to emphasize a point.

Re: Cargo Cult AI

#58
post #18

Echoing many who now find themselves blindsided by the emergent abilities and rapid adoption of LLMs, the OP: * complains that we still lack a "comprehensive theory to explain what intelligence is or how it emerges from first principles," * argues that deep neural nets like LLMs may not be capable of artificial general intelligence (AGI), and * contends that achieving AGI will require "new algorithmic paradigms." Ric…

I mean, your entire counter-argument is linking a single person's opinion piece. He says that in general more computation is "good" and that search/learning "seem" to scale with computation. That's about it. It doesn't refute the key ideas at all. He also gives the stereotypical horribly flawed trope about how "some people in the past didn't think computers could beat them in chess, and they were wrong, then some peo…

nice! when do you plan on having a prototype of you 1500mph car? i would like to invest!

Re: Cargo Cult AI

#59
post #48

Okay, but GPT can actually explain its thinking and even conduct simple proofs with rigour equivalent to what one finds at a modern university maths course. The models are just not good enough for harder tasks, time will tell if they become good enough. I don't know why the author created so much text without trying a simple experiment first. Perhaps they lack experience in modern evidence based science.

How do you know it's actually conducting the proofs and not that the proofs and related data were already part of the dataset? Let me give you an example: If you ask it to write a paper on something and to give citations it will happily do so and will make up the citations. It will link you to websites that don't exist, or papers that are completely wrong. This is because it doesn't actually synthesize what you're as…

You don't, at this point. You also don't know whether a person is lying to you or not. Or whether the person believes and replicates some utter nonsense. Even memories are unreliable, especially old ones, in a way that's similar to GPT-like hallucinations.

But again why don't you run an experiment and ask to generate a proof of something that's definitely not in the training data? Like try something scientific instead of abstract philosophy?

Re: Cargo Cult AI

#60
post #18

Echoing many who now find themselves blindsided by the emergent abilities and rapid adoption of LLMs, the OP: * complains that we still lack a "comprehensive theory to explain what intelligence is or how it emerges from first principles," * argues that deep neural nets like LLMs may not be capable of artificial general intelligence (AGI), and * contends that achieving AGI will require "new algorithmic paradigms." Ric…

> Echoing many who now find themselves blindsided by the emergent abilities and rapid adoption of LLMs, the OP

I've said this over and over again: there are no emergent abilities.

Before you leap to link me this paper, I'll link it myself: https://arxiv.org/abs/2206.07682

I read that paper. Did you? Did you understand it? Because if you had, you'd have seen that early on they define what they mean when they say "emergent abilities", and it's not what almost anyone else means when they say "emergent abilities". They're not claiming that the abilities of LLMs are anything more than the sum of their parts.

"Emergent abilities" in that paper is an extraordinarily poor communication of the idea that larger models can do more than smaller models, which should be a surprise to no one.

Stop spreading this nonsense.

I'm not saying that LLMs aren't impressive. I'm just saying this breathless fantasy where they're doing totally unexpected and unexplained things that are beyond human understanding, is totally false.

Since this is controversial and seemingly most HN folks can't hold a conversation with any nuance, if you don't use the word "shape" in your response to this post, I'm simply going to point out that you didn't read the post you're responding to, and therefore shouldn't be responding. If you stop reading at the first chance you see to correct something, go away--you're dragging down the level of the conversation.

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