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XTS-210 25hp rotary engine; 1/5th size/weight of diesel piston engines

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51–56 of 56 posts

Re: XTS-210 25hp rotary engine; 1/5th size/weight of diesel piston engines

#51

Haven't rotary (Wankel?) engines proven to be unreliable? I love the RX-7 (my dream is to own a FD one day), but IIRC even the more refined Renesis engine on the RX-8 seems to have been proven to be ornery. I think Mazda has a rotary acting as a range extender in their MX-30 EV. I wonder how that will fare.

Wankels . . are a sort of Lovecraftian fever dream that seems to set in upon the brow of mech eng greybeards every now and again. There you are, comfortable mid-career at LockBoNorthRay, but then you have to go open some weird geometry called NECROWANKELCOM from a Forbidden part of the vault and before you know it you're ranting about how four cycle engines are a Jewish plot.

Ok, hyperbole, a bit. But for reals, check out the man himself. It's pretty wild.

From an engineering perspective, there's some hard limits. Heat is going to always be a problem for Wankels due to the low thermal mass of the thing, and, of course, the fact that there's always a power cycle. The actual rotational efficiency is pretty bad, combustion impulse goes towards the center of rotation, some of it goes backwards. Compression is inherently limited from the necessities of spinning a triangle in an circle. It's nearly impossible to lube the thing effectively; early on they tried to intermix oil and fuel only to create a high-revving Soviet-era ecological disaster because Wankels tend to spit fuel before it's done combusting.

I love, love, love cutting Gordian Knots like this, which makes me want to love the Wankel, but at the same time, sometimes Gordian Knots are tied for a reason. High flow, high RPM, low weight, yes all super awesome, but . . honestly, that's called a turboshaft.

I dig this Wankel Rebooty from the Liquid guys, but they also seem to have killed the one solid advantage of the rotary design: its low weight. The thing's a brick. Also, that wobble it has when the rotor engages, do you see the back and forth? That's some weird oscillating vibration there, and I couldn't help noticing what looks like some wicked counterweights. Of course that could be some other doodad I'm ignorant of.

Re: XTS-210 25hp rotary engine; 1/5th size/weight of diesel piston engines

#52
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rotary. There are no strokes in it.

The manufacturer calls it a two-stroke. Due to the ubiquity of piston engines most people use "two-cycle" and "two-stroke" interchangeably.

It's a comparision to the two stroke cycle. There is no four stroke equivalent for rotaries

Re: XTS-210 25hp rotary engine; 1/5th size/weight of diesel piston engines

#53
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda, kinda not, they have been proven to be vulnerable to mishandling. They have few quirks and require a bit different handling than normal engine, which means that someone treating it as any other car. But at some point it will need to have engine out job and replace apex seals. In motorsports it proven to be very reliable for example. > IIRC even the more refined Renesis engine on the RX-8 seems to have been pro…

The oil metering pump was a simple mechanical device on Mazda Wankel engines up to ~1991 (the first and second generation rx-7, and I presume other models in Japan.) This was replaced by an electronically controlled pump on all the later models. The advantage of electronic control is that it conserves oil at low RPM. Unfortunately, the reliability of the pump (and the wiring) became a problem. With the RX-8, they had…

Yeah, I wonder how they deal with it in the liquid piston engine, emission control gotta be harder with no valves that can be controlled.

Re: XTS-210 25hp rotary engine; 1/5th size/weight of diesel piston engines

#54
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dollars to donuts the rotary will be easier to manufacture and maintain than the diesel. It's got fewer parts and the parts themselves are way simpler. Lubrication's easy if you don't care about efficiency or emissions, which the military doesn't.

The military does care about efficiency: higher efficiency means longer range, as we seem to be talking about aircraft / rotocraft applications. Higher wear is what they care less about: at peacetime, parts can be replaced more often, and at wartime, many will be destroyed before spending up the spec-dictated operation hours.

Since this engine is so much lighter and smaller, you can just have a larger capacity fuel tank and drastically increase the range

Re: XTS-210 25hp rotary engine; 1/5th size/weight of diesel piston engines

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What killed the rx-8 is emissions. Wankel engines are very similar to 2-cycle piston engines. Both 2-cycle and Wankel burn oil in order to lubricate their seals. Very difficult to do that and also meet current emissions standards. The second generation NA 13b engine was probably the most reliable / longest lasting wankel. Easily could go 200k miles without a rebuild. The Rx-8 rarely makes it past 150k due to insuffic…

"Source: Experience. I've owned five rx-7s and two rx-8s, maintained them myself for the past 23 years." Would you describe the past 23 years as self torture or did you actually enjoy the process? The only rotary I'd want is some ridiculous 4 router putting down enough horsepower to make me wet myself, and even then I'd probably sell it before I'd need to do maintenance on it.

My 2nd gen RX-7s were a joy to own and not at all difficult to maintain. They lack all creature comforts and practicality, they are loud, not fuel efficient but a lot of fun to drive. The RX-8 is much more refined and actually quite practical except for the even worse fuel efficiency - 16-18mpg just doesn't make sense when my Hyundai gets 45-52mpg.

Re: XTS-210 25hp rotary engine; 1/5th size/weight of diesel piston engines

#56

This is a pretty cool engine. 25hp is about 18.75 kW so a really good fit for a 15kW generator (sometimes marketed as "whole house" generators) its high RPM (typical of rotary engines) makes it a good match foundation for a turboprop engine. A pair of these driving ducted fan turboprop engines would give you an excellent long duration drone platform with good payload capacity. My guess is the Army might be considerin…

I updated the trailer to LiFEPO4 this year, Solar is next year. It's REALLY easy to undersell just how many calories are in a gallon of gas. The 5500 watt generator can top off the batteries in 90-120 minutes and the tank is 60 gallons.

This is perhaps not totally relevant, but one fun comparison I like is that a human's total energy expenditure for a year is about equivalent to the chemical energy in a single barrel of oil.
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