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Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

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Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#51

Post by tsukikage »

ursuscamp wrote: post #33
V__ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. But it had over a decade to improve society and so far the main use case is: Trick people with tech-bro talk and then scam them.

Bitcoin, specifically, is improving society in many ways, especially in Nigeria, Argentina, the Congo, etc. Even in the West, where our money is more stable and the benefits of it are less obvious, Bitcoin mining offers great benefits to energy grids.

> Bitcoin mining offers great benefits to energy grids.

In other news, breaking windows is great for the economy: it makes lots of work for glaziers!

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#52

Post by zinekeller »

csomar wrote: post #41
arcticbull wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. The under-banked don't have bank accounts because they don't have money. Nobody with money has trouble accessing a bank account. There's tons of online-only bank accounts you can open, often with no fees and zero or limited minimum balance requirements. Ally or Schwab in the US. Internationally, there's Wise, and all so…

This is a comment that says "I have no idea about the struggle of 4Bn+ people around the world when it comes to payments and banking, so I am just going to dismiss all these people as non-existent and argue that everything is fine here in the West".

This shows that contrary to your own assertion you are the one that actually don't know what you're talking about.

Technology-wise, most countries have faster methods of sending money than how US system works: FedNow is a very late welcome addition that analogous systems already exist in other countries for years, even in places where you don't expect (Nigeria, Myanmar and India of all places do have near real-time transactions). It's genuinely embarrassing that when FedNow was initially announced, most financial analysts and bankers have simply exclaimed "finally!" because that's how behind US is.

Society-wise, most people who are having monetary problems also have much more pressing life-or-death problems: there are danger where they are living (either due to conflicts or due to the general inhospitality of the place), they don't have access to clean water and food, they don't have decent work despite their best efforts, and they don't have a place to study and improve their skills. It doesn't help that their government tends to block improvements that will go to their citizens and just plunder their countries' resources. What problems does cryptocurrency solve here?

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#53

Post by overthrow »

eimrine wrote: post #48
mjburgess wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but can we just stop repeating the wildly unevidenced claims of the gullible and frauds? Who are the 'underbanked' ? What are their needs? What are the current solutions? There is nothing "there" in crypto. It's a scam. Go and obtain every textbook you can on amazon about blockchains, bitcoin, crypto systems etc. and investigate their authors. I've just done that: they're all part of various crypto schemes. Th…

I downvoted because you are telling too loud worlds: you claim to read all the books, investigated all its authors, realized all of them has some crooked interest and especially because you fail to see any problem solved. You are such a liar.

The fun part about such bombastic claims is they can be disproven with just one counterexample.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/us-government-enlists-usdc-f...

> US Government Enlists USDC for ‘Global Foreign Policy Objective’ in Venezuela: Circle CEO

Even the US government is willing to admit there are situations where crypto is the best option available.

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#54

Post by big_youth »

ursuscamp wrote: post #33
V__ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. But it had over a decade to improve society and so far the main use case is: Trick people with tech-bro talk and then scam them.

Bitcoin, specifically, is improving society in many ways, especially in Nigeria, Argentina, the Congo, etc. Even in the West, where our money is more stable and the benefits of it are less obvious, Bitcoin mining offers great benefits to energy grids.

Bitcoin mining benefiting the energy grid is an absurd statement. I live in Texas and the bitcoin mines are messing up our grid by making energy more expensive during heatwaves and freezes and when shutdown we have to pay them!

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/07/15/crypto-energy-texas-... https://www.govtech.com/computing/bitcoin-mining-threatens-t... https://www.utilitydive.com/news/warren-bitcoin-texas-power-... https://fortune.com/2022/07/12/texas-bitcoin-miners-paid-shu...

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#55

Post by pookha »

dragonwriter wrote: post #14
brianf0 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is reductive. It may bear some resemblance to cash but it's more like a voucher, and the actual value is transferred on an immutable ledger. Wish Hacker News wasn't so curmudgeonly about crypto and actually tried to imagine the multitude of ways it would improve society if adopted.

> Wish Hacker News wasn’t so curmudgeonly about crypto and actually tried to imagine the multitude of ways it would improve society if adopted. Is it curmudgeonly to be uninterested in searching for problems for an overhyped solution than is sadly lacking in them? Well, fine, then I’m happy to be a curmudgeon.

in my mind centralized banking that can turn off your finances for societal reasons (Jinping style) and fiat-currency-backed-by-drone strike are problems that need some kind of solution. Bitcoin has persisted through multiple dips and seems to be a competitor (solution).

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#56

Post by overthrow »

arcticbull wrote: post #50
overthrow wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under-banked does not mean they have no money. They obviously have some money or they would starve. Many live paycheck-to-paycheck and give 3% of their wages to a check cashing service. If it were as easy as you seem to think for them to get a bank account, those check cashing businesses all around the country would not exist.

Indeed the problem is they don't have enough money. Regardless this is a problem for congress. If we're sure they have enough money, this has historically been solved with postal banking. Let's just re-start that. [1] Check cashing isn't just about cashing the check, it's a predatory short-term lending facility. Actually cashing a check is a solved problem. And again, not addressed by crypto. [1] https://en.wikipedia…

You're right, this is a job for the government... but the government isn't solving the problem. "Let's just" have the government do their job. Call me when that happens.

While we sit around waiting, the private sector stepped in with a (interim?) solution. What's wrong with that?

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#57

Post by arcticbull »

overthrow wrote: post #56
arcticbull wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed the problem is they don't have enough money. Regardless this is a problem for congress. If we're sure they have enough money, this has historically been solved with postal banking. Let's just re-start that. [1] Check cashing isn't just about cashing the check, it's a predatory short-term lending facility. Actually cashing a check is a solved problem. And again, not addressed by crypto. [1] https://en.wikipedia…

You're right, this is a job for the government... but the government isn't solving the problem. "Let's just" have the government do their job. Call me when that happens. While we sit around waiting, the private sector stepped in with a (interim?) solution. What's wrong with that?

The (a) scams and (b) insane volatility.

The folks you are alluding to who fall into this category are the least sophisticated and most desperate. This makes them easy marks. They shouldn't be buying into unregistered securities to resolve their banking problems. That's how we got the Great Depression and why we not have an SEC.

Further, these folks are disproportionately affected by the insane volatility and high fees of the crypto space.

These so-called financial products are just proxies for US dollar liquidity in the global financial system. If we had to write a prospectus I don't know anyone who isn't a money manager who could figure out how to actually deploy this sensibly. Let alone a homeless person without an address. How are they to 'do their own research'?

Something that makes the problem worse isn't a substitute for a proper solution.

In the US you generally need an account at an AML/KYC exchange to buy crypto for dollars and a bank account, so already we're off to a bad start. Or you can use a bitcoin ATM, which costs like 20%, dramatically worse than predatory lenders.

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#58

Post by overthrow »

arcticbull wrote: post #57
overthrow wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, this is a job for the government... but the government isn't solving the problem. "Let's just" have the government do their job. Call me when that happens. While we sit around waiting, the private sector stepped in with a (interim?) solution. What's wrong with that?

The (a) scams and (b) insane volatility. The folks you are alluding to who fall into this category are the least sophisticated and most desperate. This makes them easy marks. They shouldn't be buying into unregistered securities to resolve their banking problems. That's how we got the Great Depression and why we not have an SEC. Further, these folks are disproportionately affected by the insane volatility and high fe…

Maybe instead of saying what people should and shouldn't be doing, you should ask yourself why they're using it anyway despite the obvious downsides.

Lightning fees are less than $0.01 - much better than the alternative of $20 for cashing a check. And the volatility is a small price to pay for financial control, for someone who (with good reason) doesn't trust banks or the government that's failing them.

Actually the easiest way the government could kill crypto would be to get rid of the corruption and help those "undesirables" with their problems, instead of making them fend for themselves. I'm not holding my breath, but in a way I hope that happens.

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#59

Post by latchkey »

arcticbull wrote: post #12
V__ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. But it had over a decade to improve society and so far the main use case is: Trick people with tech-bro talk and then scam them.

> I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. The under-banked don't have bank accounts because they don't have money. Nobody with money has trouble accessing a bank account. There's tons of online-only bank accounts you can open, often with no fees and zero or limited minimum balance requirements. Ally or Schwab in the US. Internationally, there's Wise, and all so…

> The under-banked don't have bank accounts because they don't have money.

I spent 4 years in Vietnam before getting locked out due to covid. The last two were on a motorcycle traveling all over the country.

Women in the north have money. They store that wealth in gold. In order to keep it secure, they keep it in their teeth. [0]

These same women also have smart phones and really good and inexpensive 4g (probably 5g now) networking, because the government provides the telcom as a function of the military. Coverage is almost 100%, even in the most remote areas.

Those are the underbanked. They need security and they need a way to capitalize on their holdings (think collateralized Kiva loans). Crypto, today, provides that. I know it is true, because I'm doing it myself.

It is 2023, let's bring people out of the dark ages.

[0] https://www.google.com/search?q=vietnam+woman+gold+teeth

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#60

Post by arcticbull »

latchkey wrote: post #59
arcticbull wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. The under-banked don't have bank accounts because they don't have money. Nobody with money has trouble accessing a bank account. There's tons of online-only bank accounts you can open, often with no fees and zero or limited minimum balance requirements. Ally or Schwab in the US. Internationally, there's Wise, and all so…

> The under-banked don't have bank accounts because they don't have money. I spent 4 years in Vietnam before getting locked out due to covid. The last two were on a motorcycle traveling all over the country. Women in the north have money. They store that wealth in gold. In order to keep it secure, they keep it in their teeth. [0] These same women also have smart phones and really good and inexpensive 4g (probably 5g…

You should just show them wise.com where they can open a US dollar account. Wise today provides that too. The idea that you need a distributed ledger for this is straight up false and this is just trying to dredge up problems to solve for a technology that has not found any meaningful use case despite 15 years of flailing.
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