Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I have a bad feeling about this

raganwald.posterous.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 184 posts

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#51

Post by jlarocco »

moonchrome wrote: post #37
redstripe wrote: post #24

The BBC commissioned a study [1] that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. This from a public domain "brand". Meanwhile companies like Disney lobby for perpetual copyright to protect their own interest at the cost of all the lost opportunities that will never exist. I don't understand how politicians in the free enterprise countries, especially American republicans with th…

>The BBC commissioned a study that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. But who cares how much it "brings in" ? Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide - take linux for eg. which is used in pretty much every aspect of computing these days - from cell phones to super computers - how much value has it provided to the consumers and allo…

"Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide - take linux for eg. which is used in pretty much every aspect of computing these days - from cell phones to super computers - how much value has it provided to the consumers and allowed developers/researchers/manufacturers to produce ?"

What unit would you use to measure the value it provides, if not money?

"Apply that to every major opensource software effort, things like IDE's, servers, programming languages/compilers. If you were granted a monopoly (like some software companies are, eg. Microsoft with Android patents) would it allow you to make money ? Sure. Would it create extra value ? Nope. "

I don't understand the point you're making. Obviously somebody thinks Microsoft's Android patents are valuable, or they wouldn't pay to use them. What do you mean by "would it create extra value?"

"Government should never protect the producer."

At least we agree on something...

"Will the demand go away if you eliminate the IP laws ? No. So the producers will have to figure out how to create new business models that work in a new environment. "

That makes no sense. Demand existing isn't enough for something to spring into existence. You make it sound like other people slaving away to create music, movies, and software is your birth right or something.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#52

Post by jlarocco »

jjude wrote: post #50
iamgilesbowkett wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you raise a very good point with "how much value does open source provide", but this question: "Why is money the sole metric of wealth." is a) ungrammatical and b) basically a tautology. money is the sole metric of wealth because wealth, quantified, is money. not trying to detract from the point you raise, just getting a bit OCD about logic and grammar.

for me, discretionary time is real wealth

Arguing against money as a unit of value seems utterly silly to me.

The monetary value of "discretionary time" is the amount of money you could have made if you did something else instead.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#53

Post by waqf »

twainer wrote: post #32

Sorry, but this post is based on a false notion that intellectual property is a beneficial crutch propping up only corporations and piggybacks on the idea that destruction of entrenched interests is always regenerative. That second point is likely so - but the battle isn't about finding new corporate captains to pay creative individuals - it's about how not to pay creative individuals. I find the irony very sad that…

When corporations conduct their business by lobbying for their business model to be legally protected, trying to compete with them in the market is bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#54

Post by shingen »

It's always curious when someone rails about a big government and its encroachment on freedom. Then in the same statement, talks about the use of big government to target specific companies to damage them instead.

As though you can really have your cake and eat it too when it comes to a big government. Big enough to break up AT&T, regulate IBM and Intel and Microsoft - big enough to take your freedom, silence your speech, regulate your Internet. Good luck getting something that big and power hungry to not keep getting bigger and more powerful and eventually wiping out your liberty. You give a government system $7 trillion dollars to spend regulating and growing itself, what do you think is going to happen? They're just going to be selectively hands off? You think you can negotiate with that?

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#55

Post by Helianthus »

twainer wrote: post #40
Helianthus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that people view your sentiment as sufficiently--forgive me--old-fashioned and out of touch as to be not worth redressing seriously. (Though to be fair, I don't really like HN's downvote culture either. I didn't downvote you.) The main reason I'm posting is to direct you to some irony in your phrase "people don't like any ripple in the construction of their own reality." While it might apply to silent downv…

I appreciate your sentiments - I really do. From my perspective, the inability of people to involve themselves in discussion both prevents them knowing me and also finding a better solution. My views on copyright are far more nuanced and forward-thinking than the rants against copyright that fill 20% of HN on any given day.

Hum. Well, now I'm on the downvote train. So it goes. Perhaps people view my post as sufficiently idealistic and radical as to be not worth serious redress. ;)

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#56

Post by TruthElixirX »

shingen wrote: post #54

It's always curious when someone rails about a big government and its encroachment on freedom. Then in the same statement, talks about the use of big government to target specific companies to damage them instead. As though you can really have your cake and eat it too when it comes to a big government. Big enough to break up AT&T, regulate IBM and Intel and Microsoft - big enough to take your freedom, silence your sp…

We just need to elect the right (See: my) people, silly.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#57

Post by nitrogen »

sukuriant wrote: post #42
zanny wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the Confederacy from the prequels. Oh yeah, those are forbidden. Regardless, the Republic and Confederacy were both toys of the Emperor, so I guess Google and Firefox... Ok I'll just leave. Star Wars should be public domain though (the original 3 movies). Fuck infinite copyright.

I have to disagree here. George Lucas is still alive, and he wrote it.

Why should copyright be tied to the life of the author (serious question)? When I discuss copyright with friends I typically argue for a fixed copyright term regardless of when the author dies. What are the arguments to the contrary?

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#58

Post by moonchrome »

jlarocco wrote: post #51
moonchrome wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The BBC commissioned a study that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. But who cares how much it "brings in" ? Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide - take linux for eg. which is used in pretty much every aspect of computing these days - from cell phones to super computers - how much value has it provided to the consumers and allo…

"Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide - take linux for eg. which is used in pretty much every aspect of computing these days - from cell phones to super computers - how much value has it provided to the consumers and allowed developers/researchers/manufacturers to produce ?" What unit would you use to measure the value it provides, if not money? "Apply that to every major op…

>What unit would you use to measure the value it provides, if not money?

I'm against quantifying it at all because, while useful, price is a very limited metric. There are numerous cases where you can increase the transaction sum and achieve 0 value increase, eg. monopolistic pricing in a market with inelastic demand or bad investing (destroying capital) or externalities, etc.

>I don't understand the point you're making. Obviously somebody thinks Microsoft's Android patents are valuable, or they wouldn't pay to use them. What do you mean by "would it create extra value?"

Nobody is "using them", in fact nobody knows what patents are in question, all that's known is that Microsoft forced different Android manufacturers to pay up for Linux kernel or they take them to court. That's textbook rent seeking. It's likely that Linux devs arrived at the solution independently (since IIRC it's unknown what patents are in question), or would have done so - so you can't make the point that without granting Microsoft a monopoly you wouldn't have Linux kernel.

>That makes no sense. Demand existing isn't enough for something to spring into existence. You make it sound like other people slaving away to create music, movies, and software is your birth right or something.

People choose to share their creations, once it's copied the copy is no longer their property. They can do whatever they want with their property but knowledge is a non-rivalrous non-excludable good (without infringing on excludable property of others) and creating artificial scarcities to sustain someones business model is ridiculous. Software can translate nicely to a no IP environment by SaaS, NDAs and open-source development financed by consulting. There are various routes for other industries, and many more can be created. I'm not sure about things like pharmaceuticals and maybe other industries have different conditions that would lead to catastrophic results, but that doesn't apply to software and entertainment, bankrupting Disney and Microsoft != bankrupting a company with 10 years of R&D in cancer treatment research.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#59

Post by moonchrome »

iamgilesbowkett wrote: post #46
moonchrome wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The BBC commissioned a study that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. But who cares how much it "brings in" ? Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide - take linux for eg. which is used in pretty much every aspect of computing these days - from cell phones to super computers - how much value has it provided to the consumers and allo…

I think you raise a very good point with "how much value does open source provide", but this question: "Why is money the sole metric of wealth." is a) ungrammatical and b) basically a tautology. money is the sole metric of wealth because wealth, quantified, is money. not trying to detract from the point you raise, just getting a bit OCD about logic and grammar.

Sorry, English isn't my first language. I'm against focusing on quantifiable wealth exclusively. Eg. reading HN is worth something to me but I didn't pay any money to do it so it's worthless ? Price is only a reflection of market exchange values, it doesn't account for actual value to the consumers. Eg. food is extremely valuable but is also cheap.

Price/money is useful but the goal is to create value for consumers, not to suck them dry :) Profit is a market signal/reward for producers but that doesn't mean that it's == to value created for consumer (see my reply above about monopolies, externalities, etc.)

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#60

Post by alain94040 »

kayman wrote: post #19
FourSquareToo wrote: post #9

Don't worry. Once China and India have a sufficient manufacturing, services and consumer base, I fully expect them to formally declare IP to be a nonsense and an impediment to growth.

Exactly. GOod luck enforcing IP rules in China. Your only choice is to out-innovate, not out-sue

Actually your more likely choice is to copy (http://blog.foundrs.com/2012/01/02/apple-vs-samsung-the-trol...). We won't be necessarily better off in a world with no IP protection.
Post reply on HN