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French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

theguardian.com

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Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#51

Post by eertami »

abridgett wrote: post #27

It's even worse - under RIP act not only can you be "forced" to reveal any passwords: - the onus is on _you_ to "prove" that you don't know it or have forgotten it - you can be told not to reveal that you've told them the password Anyone administering systems might want to think about this, governments aren't known for good security.

Hypothetically speaking, if you're not a UK resident: Surely you can keep the password on a separate device in another country, and if asked for it, say that you do have know how to get the password, but you can't physically access it without travelling to the other country.

You then aren't breaking the rules, as far as I can tell. Of course you can't give them something that is only available in another country, where those laws would not hold up.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#52

Post by CaliforniaKarl »

devmunchies wrote: post #9

This is why passcodes are better than biometric auth. It’s easy for an officer to hold the phone up to your face.

No. Stop. You are giving a false sense of security, as it seems to me like you're applying US laws to the UK, which is wrong.

In the US, you're correct that giving up a password is something understood to be protected under the 5th Amendment, whereas being forced to unlock by face or fingerprint is not[0].

In the UK, this is not the same. See point 59 of [1]:

> The power to search anything which the person has with them includes the power to search electronic devices, such as mobile phones. The person must provide access to any electronic device to allow for a search to be undertaken, including where access to a device requires the person to unlock a device through application of their thumb or finger, or any other form of access control (e.g. voice or face recognition).

[0] https://www.concordlawschool.edu/blog/constitutional-law/fif...

[1] https://www.counterterrorism.police.uk/wp-content/uploads/20...

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#53

Post by hiatus »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #39
phnofive wrote: post #2

The legal system in the UK recognizes several rights against self-incrimination, but there is a carve-out for the per se crime of failing to disclose a key to encrypted information - punishable by years in prison. How is this different than refusing to tell where you've buried the bodies? Why should the police be permitted to assume you're guilty and in possession of vital information under certain circumstances?

> How is this different than refusing to tell where you've buried the bodies? It would be more equivalent to refusing to let the police search one room in your house after they’ve established a reason to believe that you might be hiding bodies in it. > Why should the police be permitted to assume you're guilty and in possession of vital information under certain circumstances? They haven’t assumed guilt of the suspec…

Yes but your mere refusal to allow entry to a room is not grounds for arrest if the police already have a warrant and can search it regardless of your permission.

Put another way, the police do not require you to produce the keys to the subject of a warrant, they will enter by force if necessary. It's perverse that technology is different only because the police have no means of forcible entry.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#55

Post by FridayoLeary »

cm2187 wrote: post #24
toyg wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the memory of truly oppressive governments in Western Europe has faded. People who don't remember history, are doomed to repeat it.

The absence of a strong constitution protecting fundamental rights is also an issue. With a 50%+1 majority, the house of commons can vote pretty much any law it wants with no counterpower.

While in theory you are correct the reality is somewhat different. Individual mps are beholden to their local party and would hesitate to vote on anything that may endanger their position. Backbenchers have brought down 3 successive governments. There also exists an upper chamber and a high court to appeal to. It's mostly a pretty stable system.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#56

Post by CaliforniaKarl »

1659447091 wrote: post #30

Couldn't you have a max attempt lockout set pretty low and keep giving a slightly wrong variation? I mean if you dont remember, you don't remember Both my laptops and phone I need to be the one actually typing or inputting the code, I know them through muscle memory and get tripped up those few times my laptop ask for my iphone pass code, as an example

According to https://www.counterterrorism.police.uk/wp-content/uploads/20... point 59, it's legal for UK authorities to get information from electronic devices, and the device owner must unlock the device for the authorities.

So, in the context of this UK-focused article, you're giving people advice on how to evade a search that, in the UK, is legal.

Instead, I would suggest advocating for UK people and businesses to change the law.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#57

Post by negidius »

blibble wrote: post #47
Manuel_D wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And perhaps more importantly, it becomes a de-facto crime to ever forget an encryption key. People forget the passkeys to crypto wallets all the time, losing millions. How can the police effectively prove that someone remembers the passcode? What if someone, after a few months in prison, says they've reconsidered and are willing to comply. They try to decrypt it but fail and subsequently say they the stress of incarc…

> How can the police effectively prove that someone remembers the passcode? if they can prove you were using the phone an hour ago that would probably do it

The stress of being arrested and threatened with years in prison if you don't remember your passcode could very well cause someone to forget it.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#58

Post by negidius »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #39
phnofive wrote: post #2

The legal system in the UK recognizes several rights against self-incrimination, but there is a carve-out for the per se crime of failing to disclose a key to encrypted information - punishable by years in prison. How is this different than refusing to tell where you've buried the bodies? Why should the police be permitted to assume you're guilty and in possession of vital information under certain circumstances?

> How is this different than refusing to tell where you've buried the bodies? It would be more equivalent to refusing to let the police search one room in your house after they’ve established a reason to believe that you might be hiding bodies in it. > Why should the police be permitted to assume you're guilty and in possession of vital information under certain circumstances? They haven’t assumed guilt of the suspec…

> It would be more equivalent to refusing to let the police search one room in your house after they’ve established a reason to believe that you might be hiding bodies in it.

No, it isn't. The police searching a room in my house doesn't require me to do anything. They can even do it while I'm in a coma or dead. It's nothing like forcing me to tell them my passwords or any other information.

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#59

Post by blibble »

negidius wrote: post #57
blibble wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can the police effectively prove that someone remembers the passcode? if they can prove you were using the phone an hour ago that would probably do it

The stress of being arrested and threatened with years in prison if you don't remember your passcode could very well cause someone to forget it.

the thing is it's not incontrovertible proof, it's "beyond reasonable doubt"

the prosecution would show up with when you bought the phone, how many times you'd used it, that you used it 80 times in the last hour, and so on

and it comes down to whether or not a jury would believe that you had really forgotten it (despite that evidence)

Re: French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes

#60

Post by yamtaddle »

jmclnx wrote: post #48
sph wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well shit, this was my reason not to ever visit the US, but I live in Britain so I'm fucked anyway.

I wish I could laugh, seems the US, UK and Australia are in a competition to see who can out do each other. What is it with English Speaking Countries ? I guess Canada is OK because of Quebec keeps them sane :)

> What is it with English Speaking Countries ?

Legal systems based on common-law?

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